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Replaced a series of older Leviton 15A/120V receptacles with Hubble 8200's. I'll give it some time, but I sense that the sound is worse . . . slightly more detailed, but also slightly harsher and less "together". I follow rhythm guitar patterns, and I'm having greater difficulty picking out some of the more involved patterns. And that harsher edge seem very real. Now, my question . . . could this be technically possible, or is this just my sensibilities at play? Using Plinius 9200/LP12 w/ Monitor Audio speakers.
Follow Ups:
What you describe sounds like the effect of steel near the AC conductors. Keep in mind that the spine of the duplex device passes between the hot and neutral conductors. If you have steel boxes instead of plastic, the steel spine of the duplex device completes a magnetic and electrical circuit with the box. This is a nasty, one-turn transformer coupled to your AC power feed. Even with a plastic box, a steel spine is still a nasty inductor.
The HBL8200 is the 15 amp version of the HBL8300 (20 amp) and are nickel plated brass with a nickel plated brass backstrap. To confuse the matter; the HBL8200H and HBL8300H are unplated brass and have an unplated brass backstrap, and a different body. The unplated brass versions have better focus and offer a more natural presentation than the nickel plated versions in most folk's opinion (and I concur).
The unplated brass versions have better focus and offer a more natural presentation than the nickel plated versions in most folk's opinion (and I concur).Perhaps when they're 'stock'. :--)
Does this imply that you consider a cryo'd and cooked nickel plated Hubbell to sound better than a cryo'd and cooked unplated Hubbell?...
This now comes down to food-and-wine tasting, Duster....personal preference.But I would, based on experience, state that a cryo'd and Cooked Hubbell *does* sound better (offer more musical information, a lower noise floor, etc. etc.) than an untreated unit....although there are those that would prefer the untreated unit (I actually suffered through this experience with a local dealer). This again is personal preference.
And caveat emptor....not all cryo treatment is the same, nor are the sonic attributes of products cryo'd at different facilities. Similar, but not the same, due to the varying temperatures and soak times between the varied treatment.
Alan, my query was not about cryo'd and cooked vs. untreated, it's about a cryo'd and cooked *nickel plated* Hubbell 8200/8300 vs. a cryo'd and cooked *unplated* Hubbell 8200H/8300H. Your original response seemed to imply that a cryo'd and cooked nickel plated Hubbell would present with equal (or perhaps better) focus and naturalness as it's unplated counterpart.By now you should understand my POV about cryo and burn-in, and to further clarify the issue; my concern is *also* not about plating since you also know my POV about that (Oyaide, Furutech, Wattgate, etc), it's the *nickel* plate that is of issue. I don't believe nickel's magnetic property (and likely it's sonic signature, regardless of magnetism) is able to deliver the goods, even if treated with a magic wand ;-)
Duster: have you ever have the chance to compare two connectors that are identical except for nickle plate? I ask as I really wonder about the horrors of nickle. Is the problem the nickle or is the problem oxide between the nickle and the metal substrate? I have used and still use the basic Neutrik rca connector (modified) which is a brass base metal with a thick nickle plate and they don't sound bad. What is it about nickle that is supposed to be so bad? Perhaps we can devise some easy to excicute test to make some comparrisons? I know that Oyaide for example do not like nickle and i respect thier work but I have heard other respectable manufacturers make such statements and upon investigating I have not been able to agree. I am not calling them for thier choice I just want to know if I would make the same choice. Your thoughts would be welcome. I look forward to a positive discussion. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
Hi Moray,The Hubbell outlets I mentioned in the forum are a perfect example of nominally identical connectors (in this case AC outlets), one being nickel plated and the other unplated. The Hubbell HBL8300 and HBL8300H are nearly identical except that the HBL8300 is nickel plated, and the HBL8300H has a somewhat smaller body. Both outlets have the same brass fittings. I've compared the two, and the unplated HBL8300H is a superior sounding outlet, hands down.
Nickel:
Rather than it being damaging; nickel is used to *protect* the base metal; and often used as a protective metal substrate prior to gold plating. Nickel forms an excellent barrier that avoids leeching. The problem with nickel is that it's a ferromagnetic material (it can be magnetized). Ferromagnetic materials include iron, nickel, cobalt, and gadolinium. These ferromagnetic metals tend to stay magnetized even after the external magnetic field is removed.
Many Audio Grade AC connectors go so far as to use non-magnetic stainless steel screws to fasten the connector body. If these small screws placed outside of the conductive path make a difference, one can imagine how a magnetized plating would affect AC delivery. Also, my impression is that nickel "itself" does not have a good sonic signature for use as a plating, regardless of it's ferromagnetism. I have no proof of this opinion, however.
While gold, silver, rhodium, palladium, and even copper when used as platings over bronze or brass have sonic signatures that are appreciated by some folks more than by others, the general opinion of AC outlet and connector "connoisseurs" is that nickel degrades the sound.
The only "Audio Grade" (in name only, IMHO) AC outlet that's nickel plated is PS Audio's Power Port. It's a Hubbell HBL8300 with more attention payed to the plating process. It sounds the same as the nickel plated Hubbell HBL8300, IME. My PS Audio UPC-200 power line conditioner's stock outlets were PS Audio's Power Ports. When I replaced the nickel plated outlets with Furutech FP-15A(Cu) AC outlets (copper plated phosphor bronze) the presentation sounded much more natural and transparent. Simply more organic and "musical" than the nickel plated Power Ports which sounded congested and offered poor focus in comparison.
It is also well accepted that audio connectors such as rca's and spade's with a direct gold or direct silver plating provide higher sound quality vs. those that are first plated with a nickel substrate.
Best Regards, Duster
> > " The problem with nickel is that it's a ferromagnetic material (it can be magnetized). Ferromagnetic materials include iron, nickel, cobalt, and gadolinium. These ferromagnetic metals tend to stay magnetized even after the external magnetic field is removed." < <
> > > > > > > > >Duster that might explain why when I placed a large magnet on the back of a HBL8300 there was a slight attraction.
And as others have noted in other posts the Leviton hosp grade recept contacts are not plated but, the supporting yoke, strap, is made of steel. The magnet sticks like glue.
I presently am using the Leviton outlets and was going to change them out to the HBL8300, but after your comments I am going to try the 8300H outlets.
Jim
try placing ceramic magnets on the steel spines of your Leviton devices.
Al suggested that I try this. Now I have ceramic magnets on the backs of ALL my outlets (except the wall one), on the outside of any ferrous metal AC strip boxes, etc. AND it works like a charm to tame some nasties that I didn't even know I had before removing them.DANGER WARNING!!! This can be a hazard too, so you have to be damned careful where you put any conducting materials or how you alter any outlets or AC devices. DANGER WARNING!!!
Where would one buy ceramic magnets ( hardware stose or hobby shop)? Do they have a different appearance than the reg. ones. Thanks. Think I'll be selling my Power Ports have a few Furatech cu on the way already.
There's no need to mod your new Furutech Cu AC outlets. All Furutech's AC products pay close attention to being non-magnetic.BTW, l much liked replacement of Power Ports with Furutech Cu's :-)
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Have just noticed that Leviton have two male wall plugs in thier industrial series that have the same plug pin assemblies except that one is nickle plated and the other is not. When I get the chance I will get one of each and build up two identical power cords and have a listen to see exactly what the nickle adds or does not add. Perhaps you would like to replicate this experiment and we can then compare notes when we are finished. Regards Moray James.
moray james
The Hubbell HBL8300 vs. HBL8300H is an excellent direct comparison test. However, I've also experienced nickel plated AC connectors placed on various power cords and can report the same opinion about nickel plating. Bob Crump went so far as to remove the nickel plating from his much loved P&S AC plug's neutral blade. Hubbell also makes an AC plug with a nickel plated neutral blade, and I much prefer the unplated Hubbell Valise AC plug over it. Nickel's effect/sonic signature is simply less coherent and open (in my opinion) as compared to "non-nickel plated types".
....and my listening results differed from yours. Hubbell's plating process is different, and some might say superior to P & S's or other manufacturers. Bob Crump's disdain for "nickel" didn't distinguish between one manufacturer and another. "They were all bad". But Bob always had strong and unilateral opinions.Then again, my listening experiences were with units that had *double-cryogenic* treatment, plus 4+ days conditioning on the Cooker. These treatments transformed something rather ordinary (and to some ears, suspect) into a good performer. Many, many customers enjoyed the results.
I wholly respect your opinion on these matters....but the wholesale statements such as "better" are again, food and wine tasting....the realm of personal preference. I always preferred the HBL5362 for its more laid-back perspective and deep/wide soundstage. Others definitely enjoyed the more upfront 'detail' and 'immediacy' of the HBL8300. Go figure.
...nickel is ferromagnetic, no matter what treatment is applied...I will bow to your observations, though :-)
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Pumpernickel....the 'darker' nickel.Your pumpernickel probably has a Power Wrap around it!
:)
If the Hubbell's are brand new, they need more time to burn-in and should sound more open and relaxed in time. The less "together" descriptor would seem to mean a muddled presentation which should improve after burn-in. Wacky focus is often a big issue with brand new outlets, and can wax and wane during the process. The other factor to be considered is; depending on the condition of the old Levitons, the Hubbell outlets might be revealing an issue(s) downstream. Some Levitons (especially the bronze models) are known to sound degraded over time, perhaps due to their particular metal's corrosion vs. that of Hubbell's. Not all Leviton's sound bad after longterm use, though, IME. My MIT power line conditioner had Levitons before I upgraded them with Furutech AC outlets (and a Wattgate Ag silver plated AC outlet). While the upgraded outlets are superior, the stock Leviton's were not bad, at all (I don't know the Leviton model). Another interesting thing is that Ray Kimber selected a Leviton outlet as the build for his Wattgate AC outlet products. The Leviton's precise platings seem to be a winner, as the new silver plated Wattgate Ag outlet sounds excellent when mated with a VH Audio AirSine's gold plated Wattgate AC plug.
You're not imagining any of this, but you do have to allow time for any AC changes to burn in, power cords to outlets including terminations, etc.From what I've read, I don't see that Levitons are very good at all, while many swear by the Hubbells. So you should hear some improvement, certainly some changes.
I replaced the crap in my old walls with P&S and really liked the change. Then used P&S for DIY outlet strip/PC and further liked the change. With P&S plugs on DIYs the sound was very compatible and smooth but detailed and punchy to my hearing.
I made an alternative strip using Hubbell outlets and plugs and was dissatisfied in my system. Did not test the various components singly, so it could have been a synergy issue or something other than the Hubbells. Later when I DIYed more PCs with the Hubbell plugs I found that they worked fine. Still have not reused the Hubbell outlets, however, as I prefered the P&S every single time. YMMV
YOu also need to consider the following factors beyond burn in:
1)The metals used and coatings used in each outlet or plug make a difference, with some being harder in sound.
2) Star wiring your duplexes makes more sense than singly wiring the 2 outlets together into the line.
3) Mixing digital and analog on the same circuitry doesn't help your sound one bit! The farther up the chain that there is separation between the 2, the better. So #2 comes into play if you have one duplex outlet for both digital and analog, for example; does in my system for sure!
4) Treating outlets works, just like treating plugs and other terminations, so CAIG them all and consider using something like Silclear on your plugs (or the higher priced stuff).
5) Better AC will result in more detail, but that's also potentially more revealing. Some things you might not want to know....
6) RFI is such an omnipresent factor that you seriously need to consider RFI treatments carefully and separately for each part of your AC train. There are RFI treatments that help outlets, but since there's a danger factor, I won't recommend them, just alert you to them and you can research that yourself.Nothing I've said implies that this has to be expensive; it doesn't. As long as you can DIY AC stuff safely - did I emphasize SAFELY - you can do so much on the cheap that will sound like a million bucks!
Bart, I know you do a lot on a pretty tight budget. I admire that. I am starting to think that perhaps the most important fundamental item for even a budget system is to have at least one cryo treated Oyaide outlet. This may seem a bit out of balance at first glance but in what other component can the difference between the very best and the very cheapest be about a hundred bucks? Other than a dedicated line, which most real budget systems are not going to have, the sound starts right there. The gold plated Oyaide SWO-GX that I've been using seems like a must have item for everyone. There is something very special going on here. I have heard the palladium plating on their AC male end, the P-046, and although it is amazing, I think that the palladium along with the rhodium plating may not match up with gear in a budget catagory. I can't see the gold version doing anything that would show off faults in anyones gear. I think it's a great value at $100 even on budget.
Generally, I start with DIY for the fun and savings, but mostly to try out the concept. Since a lot of DIY clones are purported to give 60-80% of the impact for under 10% of the cost, I often stay with them. That difference is a lotta bread!!!Then there's the potential synergy issues.
My P&S (and others) cost under $4 with higher priced options at $8-12 apiece. Pretty cheap for good sound. If I buy them cryoed they jump to $16-25 apiece. Still pretty cheap. The least expensive of the specifically "audio grade" outlets are $40 each, while the Oyaides run as you note into 3 figures.
To make that extra 20% worth the $100+ jump I'd have to be damn sure that there was a commensurate jump in that quality WITH my budget gear and other parts of the AC system. That's assuming that the synergy with the rest of my lower priced system from other manufacturers would even carry the full benefit over, since I'm not going to be able to afford the full Monty. I know that the law of diminishing returns is woefully operative in audio, so I'm kinda doubtful just now.
I do know that cryoed plugs and wire work well with my system. I've found other great tweaks through experimenting (and in electricity from our fellow inmate Al Sekela). So those have come before the Oyaide experiment.
Wish I did have the budget many of you do....not in the cards.
The budget for my system has never been huge and I love to push the limits of deminishing returns and find those bang for the buck solutions too. Like I said I most admire those who get the best sound with the least. My system is the result of 30 plus years of slow changes and buying mostly used. I was able to buy a mint condition tube amp that was only a few months old for a small fraction of list. I added a couple hundred bucks from the sale of my old amp. You know how it goes.I think it takes a lot more thought and know how to set up a real budget system and get good sounding results from it than to just be able to throw unlimited amounts of money at it. I have heard, and I am sure many of the rest of us have heard very expensive systems that make you wonder why they bother. In some cases the owners seem to enjoy the sound of these rigs. In that case I'm happy for them. In the other cases where they just never get there it's a little sad. These are often the people who have the greatest scorn for us "tweakers". That next mega buck component upgrade is going to fix everything!
I have been thinking of selling most everything but my speakers(no one would pay me anything for them anyway and I don't have that much money invested in them)and buying a used Rotel 1072 CD player and a used Rotel 1062 integrated amp or maybe some NAD gear. I could ear mark some of the money I would clear for tweaking and experimanting and invest the rest of the money into something more responsible(resonsible isn't always that much fun). I think I might even listen to this econo rig more. I would never have the thought in the back of my head that I'm just wasting tube life if I turn it on for a quick listen and then have to turn it back off before I even get the thing warmed up. This little rig would always be ready and waiting to go at a moments notice.
I may very well take a few pages from your tweak book Bart.
The Oyaide is in place and ready to go.
It's essentially what I gleaned from this and a few other websites, a few really helpful and knowledgable inmates, and my own penchant for re-inventing the wheel in a shape of my own devising!My setup, BTW, is all SS for now (wanting a cathode follower/tube buffer maybe) - NAD receiver and NAD CDP, which I like in combination very much with my VR1 speakers. There's a Taddeo passive in there, but the rest is all essentially tweaks, vibe controls, RFI controls, AC tweaks, homemade racks and stands, DIY acoustical controls, some DIY and some commercially (small builders) cables.
I get great sound out of this setup, and that's despite some bad acoustical problems and upset housemates! YMMV, of course... LOL
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