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In Reply to: RE: FM tuner recommendations posted by OakIris on February 14, 2014 at 12:42:10
Hi Holly,Here's the 'executive summary' or 'abstract' - The ROI you will get depends on you (and your SO.) :-)! I've spent a bit of the afternoon editing / cutting and pasting but may have repeated myself! ;-)!
You should first determine what is the value to you of a good FM tuner, and a good? antenna for/while living in Denver, where your home is. You cannot pay someone to do this for you.
FM esp. in stereo can be a very good high-end source - IME&Opinion- especially where stations use very little processing and where they do a lot of live acoustic concert broadcasts, or replay them. I record for one such station, and our national public classical network is akin to the BBC's Radio3 - at its former best!
You wrote "Most of the radio stations I listen to have a decent signal." ? What does that actually mean, I ask? :-)! Because 'it depends.' It does indicate to me that you may not be living down in an 'FM hole'. Which can't hurt.
IMExperience a tuner with a tubed front-end has to be driven pretty hard to sound really good and with low multi-path* on that quite strong signal. Both aspects point us { ;-) } at a directional antenna with gain.
IE the very best reception / sound usually requires a directional antenna with gain - aimed at the cleanest - *least reflections! - signal in the air above and around your home. This _can_ mean aiming at a strong early reflection, because it is the cleanest signal for a particular station, for where your home is. A rarely exercised option! You really do need a topographical map, one with contour lines to really understand what you are up against. From the transmitters to you.
It is also vital that the radio-system gets to full-limiting when pointed at a desired signal. This a function of how much signal reaches the radio's front-end - from each station. Noting that I have never heard a tuner in overload and valve tuners are more overload-resistant.
A longish boom multi-element FM antenna - perhaps with a rotator - may be necessary. The other directional alternative is one or more DIY wire rhombics hidden under carpet or a big rug OR pinned to a large ceiling. A double Rhombic can be arranged / overlaid to give a wider arc than most boom antennas, while still minimising multi-path. Pointing their main axis at the desired stations is a requirement, so you will need to orient your house to the topographical map.
Rhombics also have heaps of gain - once each of the 4 equal sides approach / exceed the ~3m wavelength of FM.
Sooo - before you even consider a serious tuner AND what antenna?, you (both?) need to nut out, using say a cheap used SS tuner / the FM Fool web-site / your car radio - WHICH stations in the Denver area are 'truly desired' by you, and where each transmitter/s is/are. In case of more than one transmitter the one which will give you the most signal where you are. You may be lucky and find that some of the desired stations share a transmitter site/tower.
Then you'll know what you want to aim at. This lets you list you how many compass bearings there are that are outside an arc of about 15-20 degrees.
Denver is up in the Rockies - mountains are a great source of reflections which cause the problem called *multi-path. *Multi-path signals - even when not grossly audible - will reduce the listen-ability of FM.
I live in Canberra - one of the world's most spread-out capital cities - which backsinto three valleys / bowls of our own Great Divid(e)ing Range - right next to the highest bits called the Snowy Mountains. So Multipath on FM (and ghosting on analog TV) - both due to reflections - could be a big problem for some residents. Like us!
Selectivity? - and tube vz SS front ends. Selectivity is a function of several things: the antenna's pattern, the two station's signal level at your tuner's front end, and the stated 'selectivity' numbers for the tuner. So, if you had two stations very close in frequency, at much the same signal level at your tuner's front end - and on the same bearing from you, or close, you could be in difficulty. The USA's FM band-II IS very crowded! This reinforces my point about finding out what's 'in the ether' around you on FM.
A few tubed tuners are selective. Are there other issues with rejecting unwanted signals by older tuners!??
Yes! Other stuff transmitted by a given station. i) SCA signals and ii) HD Radio signals. Both can require a steep band-pass filter inside the radio's circuits. Another reason to find out as much as possible about the stations in and around Denver.
Happy to advise further.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 02/14/14 02/14/14 02/14/14 02/14/14Follow Ups:
Thank you for your thoughtful post, Tim. Sounds as if things can get pretty complicated!
Yes, my statement that the signal is "decent" wasn't very informative and is not based on anything scientific. The majority of my radio experiences these days are via the stock radio in my car; I also have a tube based radio (made in China) that I purchased a few years ago; no antenna is attached to it, but it still gets the stations I am interested in. I haven't tried to use the tuner component in either of my receivers. So, really, I have no idea what sort of signal I have here for a decent FM tuner to pick up; I imagine I would be amazed by the better sound and by what other stations I might be able to listen to once an antenna is involved. I don't know what I am missing so I guess I am not sure what I need as far as sensitivity, etc., is involved.
Denver isn't actually in the Rockies, still on the plains but we can see the foothills and mountains from here so I am sure the mountains do indeed affect the radio signals.
I like the idea of using a Rhombic antenna installed on the ceiling - my house is single story but I do have 'cathedral ceilings' in the room where my audio system is located. I will have to look into that, though "orienting my house to the topographical map" may be a challenge. And how do you find out where the radio station transmitters are? Guess that info would be on their websites?? Is there a good tutorial for making a Rhombic antenna?
Holly
Why not start with the tuners in your receivers as they are in-house with a zero cost component. WHat receivers do you have? It might be one or both contain very decent tuners such as the tuners in say a Marantz 18 or 19, Sony STR6060, 6120 or 6200, McIntosh 1700, 1900 or 4100, or even the likes of a Philips 787 or 786 and many others that to get an equally good tuner will put you WAY over budget.
You can always use the receiver as a tuner, just run a set of cables from the tape output of the receiver and turn off the speakers or pop on a set of resistors on the speaker terminals to keep a load on the output. A number of receivers use the same circuits as dedicated tuners of the same period and for a number of these the going price of the receiver is much less than the dedicated tuner. Examples of this include the Sony STR6120 and STR 6200 vs the 5000 tuner and Marantz 18 and 19 vs the respective 20 and 20b tuners.
Think about asking about what car to buy while having 2 cars in the driveway you have never driven. And not sure what you may or may not like about a car.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
You make a valid point, Don, but....
I am not looking for a tuner just for the sake of having a radio, I want a tuner for my separate 2-channel system, which, of course, does not include a receiver. If I can find the antennas that came with the receivers, I am now inspired to install them in order to hear what the tuner sections sound like, but my main radio listening will be with my tube-powered two channel system, so, as much as I would prefer not to spend money, I still need a dedicated tuner.
Holly
I understand entirely but if you could spend say $250 - 300 on a tuner or $700 for the same tuner which would you buy. This is not too far from the price spread between the Marantz 18 that has the Model 20 tuner in it and the Model 20 as a dedicated tuner. Sounds odd the receiver is less expensive but it is just the economics of the market. When new the receiver was more expensive than the tuner.
This is a nutty hobby at best.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
FM Fool should have that information.
Go to FAQ here at AA for the Rhombic article.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Thanks, Tim!
Holly
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