|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
71.59.92.21
I have a PrimaLuna DiaLogue HP power amp and its preamp mate the DiaLogue Premium. Both units came with six stock gain tubes each. Does anyone know if I would affect the resulting sound more by rolling out only the preamp gain tubes? Or is there more of an effect by rolling out only the power amp gain tubes? Are the "greatest" impacts produced by rolling out the gain tubes on both units?
Follow Ups:
Although I have the integrated, it shares an overall similar sonic traits of the separates.
The stock setup with EL 34's is nice. Kevin the distributor would be the one to speak with regarding the tube rolling. I don't know which plays a more noticeable role-but the innermost pair are responsible for any noticeable sonic change.
The suggestions are divided-pre amp tubes vs power make the biggest difference.
My ears detect the power tubes as the bigger "shape maker" and the pre tubes as the "fine tuner" of the "sonic shape"
I prefer the 6V6G sound over the KT88, EL34/77 sound. If I had more disposable cash, I would try the KT 150@ $100 each.
The 6V6G sounds the most realistic with my limited experimentation. I understand even the 6V6GT even sounds different, which I haven't tried.
The price of some NOS tubes are way out of my league and I would make certain I had the best gear and room setup first before tube insanity.
Between this and cable nervosa, you may forget about the actual MUSIC.
Which 6V6G tubes are you using and how would you compare to the stock EL-34 or KT-77?
Samzx12-
Those are 1950ish RCA 6L6G. They are still relatively easy to find and not outrageously priced as many NOS power tubes.
There are a few threads comparing EL34 to 6L6, so you may want to check the archives.
I simply hear a more believable presentation of music/vocals in my system. Their output is less, so you may notice less "pop" as you described the KT77.
The mids are less technicolor than the 34's, but still there compared to a KT88 type.
Something about the overall tone, is what catches my attention.
It's all subjective, so that's why I suggest the archives. I'd like to try the KT150, but price is a little more than I want to spend on glass bottles.
What would I expect to pay for RCA 6L6G on average?
I will check out the threads comparing EL34 to 6L6G in depth more. Took a brief gander at work today when I could. Not sure I could understand the difference so far but I do have a tendency to listen to rock and more dynamic types of music.
WHen you say the mids are compared to a KT88 type what exactly do you mean? I do like the 34 mids of course but the overall tone could be a tad more lively or not as dark if that is the correct description.
I know what you mean about the price of the 150's however, I purchased mine from an Ebay seller who has lots of good feedback and matched from the factory. Of course our amps auto bias so that is an awesome feature.
"What would you expect to pay for RCA 6L6G on average?"
If you're into Ebay bidding, lots of 2-4 can be won for the cost of 1 KT 150 tube.
Otherwise, there seems to be enough competition for single tubes between 35-50.
"WHen you say the mids are compared to a KT88 type what exactly do you mean? I do like the 34 mids of course but the overall tone could be a tad more lively or not as dark if that is the correct description. "
Now thinking about my assessment of the KT88 in the PL, I have NOT heard a KT88 setup in the HP. That was several years ago with the Prologue 2-a step down maybe a BIG step down? My opinion likely would change now.
The authority on tube rolling would be Kevin @Upscale. Being the distributor, he's the PL authority especially with tube questions.
Addressing your sonic issues, particularly with the PL, is treading dangerous area $$.
I've had great success with AC regen and cabling which helped those areas.
But, as always YMMV.
I will check out Ebay for sure. I did look online at RCA Blackplates and they are about $100 per tube. Uh no way lol.
I may call Kevin or Jarrod at Upscale so I am not chasing my tail. Already have quite a bit invested in tubes but I know I am close. I am using CD's as my source for the most part to find the sound I am looking for.
AC regeneration duties go to a Running Spring Haley which has been a HUGE improvement. Power cords and IC's are a whole other wormhole lol.
Definetly a good idea to speak with them on tube suggestions.
What's "good" is subjective, so at least speaking with PL central will offer more guidance where to go on your sonic quest.
I'm assuming you did the experimenting with the 4/8 ohm taps? I hear the power cord into the Power Plant(most go direct to wall outlet) as the best for sonics. I haven't tried the tweaky fuse thing, Since I have no plan to ever sell the PL, a few component upgrades under the hood as MCGJohn suggests,has my attention. I'd like to hear just how close the PL can come to one of those $15-20k,Class A operation, uber integrated units.
I totally agree speaking to PL Central will help.
I have not experimented with the 4/8 ohm tap as I have heard it wouldn't make much difference. Maybe I should as my speakers are 89db and 8 ohms. As far as your power cord to the RSA Haley, great suggestion but I have done this awhile back and finally got that sorted out. Hell that is a whole other can of worms isn't it lol? I have considered the tweaky fuse thing with my CD player and MCGJohn does bring up another tweak. Geez when does the madness end haha?
Sam
Well put. That's how I feel as well.
I have 2 sets of every tube used in my system except the power tubes. I've swapped the pre-amp tubes and the driver tubes in my power amp. I can't hear any difference. I can't swap the power tubes as only one brand will work. The Sovtek 6B4G is overspec'ed and a NOS 6B4G would not be able to take the power, at least not for very long.
My pre-amp used 6GM8, and I have a quad of Bugle Boys, and a quad of something else, and my driver tubes are a quad of orange globe 6DJ8, with the second set Sylvania 6922. People hate the 6922, but I can't tell.
Terrific insights and advice that should help guide me as I continue with this process. Thank you, everyone.I do have but don't like the resulting sonic signature (via vinyl [mono & stereo carts] and SACD) of Tung Sol KT-120s as used in the HP amp. To me, over Spatial Audio Hologram M-3 Turbo S speakers, the KT-120s present a much flatter albeit brighter sound stage than do the stock PrimaLuna EL34s which to me provide what must be my "preference sound" i.e. a more-defined, lusher and layered 3D image.
On the preamp I changed out the stock rectifier PL tubes to a pair of Phillips 5R4GYS and also changed out the first two stock gain tubes to a pair of Cifte and Brimar.
All of these tube changes occurred within the past several days to past week and with limited research prior to purchasing. What prompted the initial post here was that I felt I jumped the gun and that I should have posted here first before diving in and buying all of these tubes. Reading only what UpscaleA posts on its website to describe characteristics of select tubes, I was about to pull the trigger on a set of Winged-C power tubes (with the expectation that this would deepen/further enhance my "preference sound") but I didn't want to go that route if a consensus was that I was going about this all wrong from inception. I will now be guided by everyone's comments and I very much appreciate your collaboration.
Edits: 01/17/17
"the stock PrimaLuna EL34s which to me provide what must be my "preference sound" i.e. a more-defined, lusher and layered 3D image."
I'll go out on a limb here because I don't know your gear. If you like the EL34 voicing then try the GL KT77 or the EH 6ca7, both are drop in replacements. These are what I settled on for a pair of Dynaco MKIV monos I have.
I'm not really clear on where he wants to take it and what's not giving him what he wants now?
he should email Jim McShane for a recommendation on what tubes he can drop in that amp. As well as starting on the smaller tubes if needed????
If the OP is using EL34 I am ASSUMING!!!! he wants more clarity or top end???? So a GL KT66/77 would really do the trick. I have HEARD the EH6ca7 are good as well but have never tried them myself.
I know I'm fighting the crowd on this one. But I always liked getting a good set of output tubes then tweak out my smaller tubes.
The GL will add a lot more energy on the top and bottom end. Warm and fuzzy they ain't! but clean and crisp they are. I used the GL KT66 for quite a while. An excellent tube.
You will get a lot of different opinions as different people are looking for different things from there systems.
I agree with you on the Tung Sol KT120. And the Prima Luna EL34 are Shugang EL34b. Not a bad tube but not great at the frequency extensions. The Cifte and Brimar small signal tubes are an upgrade over the stock tubes so I would look to the power tubes at this point.
I believe the PL can take many different types of power tubes. I would try to put together two different sets, one a KT88/6550/KT90 and one a 6L6/KT66 type.
For the first type, I like the Prefered Series KT88 (same tube as the PentaLabs KT88SC), NOS EI KT90 (I think Tctubes still has some) or maybe GL KT88 (have not tried these recently but they seemed to be well liked).
In the second group, Gold Lion KT66, Prefered Series 6L6gc, or the new Tung Sol 7581A (which I have yet to try but are getting rave reviews for hi fi use) would be worth trying.
I know it is a major investment but you will have to try different tubes to find what you like. And it is nice to have variety.
Enjoy the roll!
Edits: 01/17/17
I'm in the camp of the preamp tubes having the most effect because of their higher amplification factor vs the amp output stages.
NSGarch posted here but hasn't in a while but I kept one of his posts that addresses this subject in a most detailed way and the reasons for it.
All tubes anywhere in the system can affect sonics. That said, you want to first 'roll' those tubes that affect sonics the most (and choose what candidate you like best) and then the other tube positions as they affect sonics in descending order of influence. This way you will be able to hear the subtler changes from the less influential tube(s) and make the choice(s) you like. Otherwise you will be lost.
In descending order of importance, the amp should be optimized first. And in the amp, it's generally the smaller gain multiplier tube(s) that have the biggest effect on sonics, simply because they process (amplify) the signal the most. Starting from the input, a typical tube amplifier has:
1. a splitter/inverter tube (usually a 12A(T/U/X)7, 6SN7, or other twin-triode tube that converts a single ended signal to a balanced signal for further processing. The next tube(s) are the aforementioned gain multipliers (often the same type as the splitter/inverter, but in any case, usually another twin-triode type.) It's better if these first two functions use tubes that are lo-noise, and have their two internal sections reasonably matched. Which brands/versions sound best to you is your call . . . .
2. The next tube (or tubeS, depending how many pairs of power tubes there are) are the driver tubes. These basically modulate the power tubes' grid voltage using the amplified signal from the gain multiplier tube(s). The power tubes' grids are like a gateway (valve) that regulates how much power/frequency the power tube(s) send to your speakers. These driver tubes are next most influential (usually) on the sonic character.
3. Last in sonic importance are the power tubes themselves. The name of the game with power tubes is of course, Power. And in this respect, they influence sonics too, but in a slightly different way (than the 'color' of the sound), especially in the bass frequencies, depending on a number of factors; the most important of which are transconductance (gain or amplification capability) and maximum plate current output. These affect how good a 'grip' the power tube has on a low frequiency driver.
Preamps are another matter altogether, and can be addressed after you have the amp/speaker combo sounding the way you want. Preamps are, in their simplest form, source selectors, channel balance trimmers, and signal output attenuators (volume controllers.) Tubes in preamps basically need to be QUIET above all else. They don't do much amplifying (sometimes none) unless they are microphone or phono cartridge preamps, but they DO buffer (mediate) the various sources' output characteristics, in order to provide a proper output impedance for driving the amplifier. Bottom line? Preamps are 'traffic directors' in my opinion, and whether tube or solid state, should be QUIET and NEUTRAL. With respect to the signal, they should essentially disappear and have no effect on the sonic quality of the signal if they are doing their job.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
My personal findings:
rolling the smaller driver tubes has an effect but not the "big" effect you would think. It seems to have more of an effect on distortion and clarity.
The only effect on tone seemed, again to ME!, was if it was there or not! Like a poor treble or weak midrange. But did it have a "tone" effect - na!
The real texture and character, again to me! seemed to be more from the output tubes.
But you do need a GOOD driver tube!!!!! for the reasons I just explained. For clarity and a good balance going into the output tubes.
And by "output" tube you mean the power tube, correct? Or do you also mean not only the power tube in the amp but also the rectifier tubes in the preamp?
Edits: 01/17/17
I find the preamp tubes have slightly more effect on sonics. But, both preamp & power amp tubes are important. Even the rectifier tube makes a difference & I do not know why.
Sony, not picking on you but it seems there is a lot of it that goes on but people want to contribute.
Face it tube rolling can get expensive quickly. There are also many variables that change with each listeners equipment, room, source input etc. I would suggest in a different manner than put forth earlier, that the OP figure out just what he prefers as far as signal input(turntable, CD, streamed music) then begin with that circuit of the preamp, IE line in, phono, etc. then work from there. Do one change at a time and get comfortable with it. What you may find as a miraculous improvement in one instance can wear on you a few days later. At some point undo your change and listen again.
Of course the search function of the asylum can be a wonderful resource to hear others opinions on differing tubes. Also these days, DO NOT dismiss modern iterations of tubes available. I stll think the Sovtek 12ax7LPS is the best phono input tube available. You can't beat the price!
Uncle Mike. I want best sound for my amps. I need to roll all tubes. I have progressed over the last 20 years. Any tube amp does not get it. In fact, only DIY for me.
A lot of people are just parroting the "vintage tubes are better" argument. There are many EXCELLENT new production tubes out there. Some, and I'm not going to mention MY opinion again, are just as good or maybe even better than their famed vintage heritage.
Both. I select power tubes 1st then fine tune with the small tubes. The power tubes make the biggest difference when selecting the type, then the brand.
It helps a lot if you have sonic goal in mind when selecting your tubes. If you do you might get some meaningful recommendations.
"It helps a lot if you have sonic goal in mind when selecting your tubes. If you do you might get some meaningful recommendations."
Agreed. Without a sonic objective one's just spinning their wheels when it comes to tube rolling. And in this case, the combo of tube amp & tube preamp = a lotta' tubes that could be swapped out. Wouldn't take too long to burn a sizeable hole in the old wallet if the NOS bugs hits.
I don't see that as spinning wheels. I can define a sonic objective but I'm still back where I started, which is, "Okay now that I want the sound to be such-and-such, do I get closer to that sound by rolling the gain tubes on the pre, or amp, or both?"
What does my already knowing the specific changes in sonics have to do with my "point" in asking for advice that has nothing to do with knowing the specific changes. I recommend you re-read my initial and subsequent posts, or alternatively confine your misguided complaint to those posts where it has relevance.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you already know the specific changes in sonics you're looking to achieve via tube rolling, what's the point in asking for advice if you're not willing to share those sonic objectives w/ those of whom you're seeking assistance?
Ahh, I did not know that, that the power tubes make the biggest difference.
And so just to confirm -- and we are talking about only the power tubes for the amp -- those get selected first (based on a desired sonic outcome). Then afterwards, one begins a process of "fine-tuning" with gain tubes.
Okay, so assume I have selected the power tubes (or that I like the sound of the stock power tubes and have decided to retain and use those), I still have a choice at that point to swap out gain tubes on either the pre-amp, power amp, or both. What is the selection process now? Does the greatest sonic change occur with changes to the preamp gain tubes? Or to the power amp gain tubes? Does it not make a difference which gets changed because the sonic difference either way is not appreciably significant? And further, once a decision is made as to on which device gain tubes should be changed (assuming there is an obvious choice), would swapping out tubes on the other device produce even more of a sonic change (so much more that most people would judge that change to be worth the investment in the additional tubes)?
I have a Dialogue Premium (non HP) and have been going through tube rolling for awhile. There are many great points here and I am still not where I want to be either sonically. What I have found so far is the stock amp sounds very very good but missing a little something for my tastes. One thing I have found is the stock tubes have a sense of timing or cohesiveness that I like however when I have rolled in other power tubes this timing goes away somewhat. The power tubes set the tone and the preamp tubes tailor the sound to your liking. The stock power tubes lack a little pop and overall soundstaging so I have been trying to achieve this by trying various power tubes. I love the EL34 sound so recommended were the GL KT77. They are really nice tubes and close to the EL34 but definitely more pop. Still wanting to try others I rolled in Mullard re-issue EL34. Nice tube but a little something was lacking. Don't get me wrong these are good tubes. I bought the amp from Upscale Audio and purchased the KT120 which I rolled in after getting used to the stock sound. Hated the 120's. Way too grainy and upper midrange glare and couldn't tune it out with Mullard CV4003 (12Au7). Sold them and purchased some Tung Sol KT150. These are nice tubes and they have a wonderful soundstage, slam, and a very nice midrange unlike the KT120. However the stock timing isn't there so my chase is still on lol. One tube that I have found that is awesome is the Cifte 12AU7. I suggest you try this tube in the front 2 slots. They make a LOT of difference. I have currently gone back to the stock EL34 and contemplating trying another power tube like a KT66 or a 6ca7. Yes tube rolling can get expensive but once your realize what tone you like then work it from there. I still haven't ruled out the KT150's altogether as they have some very nice characteristics (slam, soundstage, tone) but the stock cohesiveness isn't quite there.
samzx12, the other option you may want to try are Mills Wire wound on all the plate and cathode positions on your amp. The stock PL resistors are metal oxide, very rugged but not known for the sonic qualities.
the PL Dialogue is quiet now, but you will hear more micro detail withe MILLs in place, while at the same time removing some of that high freq. edge the metal oxide Resistors add.
best
How would I go about this and what kind of sonic qualities or differences would the Mills Wire make? Thank you!
Sam
determine what resistance values are needed, order them and solder them in place.
the MILLs improve focus and low level detail without adding any brightness.
Thank you for the information. Just another curve ball thrown in this crazy hobby lol ;)
Lets assume for a moment that you like the overall sound of your amp/pre amp in your present system except that you find the upper mid range a bit bright. In that event I would put a different pair of 12AU7's in the center sockets of the amp - I would make sure that the tubes had a reputation for a soft or slightly mellow upper mid range. If that made any difference at all towards your goal than I would get another pair an put them in the center sockets of the pre-amp and see if that improved the sound more.
Lets say you like your present systems sound but you might like a bit warmer bass (a change I don't usually experience much with small tube changes) you might try a Tungsol 6550 power tube (a tube I use in my Primaluna for just that reason and FWIW I use a new stock Mullard 12AX7 as it softens the highs slightly something that is useful as my system is based on CD's, not vinyl. If I wanted a more linear sound than the Tungsol I'd try a GL KT88. If I wanted a tube with less bass but a very clear linear mid/high end I would try Sovtek KT88's. But FWIW all of these recomendations are based on my use of them in Primaluna products.
The permutations of tube combinations and consequential results are, seamingly endless, so do not expect definitive advice beyond the mechanical.
Other posters mentioned the importance of matching your amp/pre-amp to your source. Unfortunately your source can have some (negative) impact on your ultimate sound. But sources change from year to year, or day to day if you have multiple sources. Finding an ideal amp/pre-amp for both, i.e. vinyl and digital (or multiple) sources can be a real challenge if you have very high end expectations of the sound of both.
Hope that helps a bit.
I would agree with Chuck Y. Have both the HP and non HP versions of this amp. Would have to say I hear a bigger change with power tubes, but again depends on which tubes power tubes. I like a warmer sound so pulled the stock PL power tubes and inserted Mullard KT88 re-issue tubes.
The input or front end tubes will make a difference, but mainly its the first two 12AU7s that will have the largest effect. The other 12au7s is minimal by comparison.
As some of the other posters noted, the cost of tube experimenting can become large very fast. If you have friends that will let you try out a set of power or input tubes that is one option.
and as mentioned previously, coupling caps can make as big or bigger difference in the sound. PL uses metalized SCR caps in both the HP and non HP amps. they are ok, but not great. If you like the sound of the SCRs, a quick swap to the white film and foil SCRs will give you greater detail than the stock caps.
best
As someone taught in my youth as a buyer for a chain of slightly upscale audio salons back in the day, that one always approached any upgrades from the Source downwards, as these tend to have the most adverse impact on the sonic integrity of everything which receives the proper signaling further downstream.
In other words....., your preamp tubes should be addressed after the power tubes ( NOS or Current Production ) as the voicing here then effects how one goes ( or should ) about fine tuning according to " your taste | ears " said gain ( preamp | signal ) tubes in ones Power amp bring about a sense of synergy and tonality above all else.
And do note, that it's not always a good thing to use any one brand of tubes more then once in ones system, as it then brings with it all of its strength and weaknesses that should be altered counterbalance wise by using different brands to create a collective whole......., and one that's easier to come by once said person understand how each factories voiced their tubes to begin with......., and while I'm a proponent of NOS preamp tubes, I can see where power tubes made between say 1960 to now can in fact bring beautiful sonics to the table......, it's again all about which type of voicing the end user is pursuing that matters.
Just keep in mind......., Source first, followed by ones Preamp | Integrated | Power Amp ending at the Speakers and lest not forgive the vital role of the cabling loom itself........., as it makes or breaks the vital sense of cohesiveness needed to draw the listener into what's going on with the musical notes them self, as opposed to merely listening to the components.
Is your goal also in line with the actual amp and general setup you have?
I'll give you an example. A few years ago I bought a Conrad Johnson tubed preamp with the simple minded idea that it had that classic tubey preamp sound. Well it DIDN'T!. And no matter how much tube rolling I did that never happened.
I later began to understand the sonics of the CJ preamp and now I would not change it for the world. BTW that also happened with the amp I also bought. Fate has a funny way of bringing you places you never imagined you would get to.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: