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In Reply to: RE: Fake Tubes/Bad Seller? posted by Ishmael on November 22, 2016 at 19:00:23
I have quite a few of these of different vintages and with different markings, and all are genuine Amperex 7316's as far as I know. But regardless of the exterior printing or vintage, they are all totally identical internally. If the tubes you bought are similar to the Ebay ad Michael linked, I'd say it's almost certain you got fakes (and especially if you bought them from "old_guy_radiola"). None of the tubes I have are black plates and none have shiny plates (they are all matte gray). I cannot see any crosshatch in the top of the glass in the Ebay tubes that would indicate a genuine Amperex. All my 7316's have a round top getter, and while it's difficult to see in the Ebay photo, it doesn't look like the getter is round in those tubes. And it would be rather strange for the exterior printing to be in nearly flawless condition for tubes of that age. The Amperex screening comes off just by touching it on my tubes, so I'd guess that the printing on those tubes is pretty recent.
Follow Ups:
As heiney9 mentioned some 7316's have long plates and D getters. The 7316's I currently have are the Ct0 version which is the 1st 7316 version Amperex made. They are long plates with D getters that have a foil strip.
Ishmael: Speaking as Seller (I've sold about 2000 LPs on ebay & Audiogon) my position is if your Seller misrepresented the tube as a 7316, either as he was unaware of what he was selling or if he intentionally misrepresented the tube, he should be willing to refund your purchase should your tube not be a legit 7316. And if the Seller is a tube-centric seller, ala old_guy_radiola, he should have the expertise and done his due diligence to know what he's selling and market tubes correctly.
Most Buyers would spend more for a 7316 than almost all 12AU7/ECC82 tubes. And thus, assuming your 7316 is not a 7316, would you have spent as much as you did if the tube was marketed correctly as a 12AU7/ECC82? If not, that should be on the Seller and justifies a refund should you want one.
Well said.
And if your research showed that Amperex was the only manufacturer of a true 7316, even if they OEM'd and branded them for RCA, they would still have the cross hatch in the top glass as they certainly wouldn't have changed their manufacturing tooling and methods to produce an OEM tube for someone else.
With this particular seller, I don't know if he's printing the false labels or buying them like that, but for the number of tubes he peddles, he should certainly have enough knowledge to know what he's selling. I emailed him quite a while back about some 6922's he was selling (for a very premium price) that were clearly not Amperex. His response was pretty vile -- he knew what he had, I didn't know what I was talking about and was pretty much an idiot, and if I didn't like what he had for sale then I better quit wasting his time and go shop elsewhere. My email was polite and courteous, and when you get a response like that in return it's a pretty good indication that he's well aware of what he's doing....and doesn't like being called out on it. I have no proof one way or the other so my comments clearly fall into the FWIW category, but I stay well away from anything with his name on it.
Right on Bcowen.
FYI: The OP never mentioned who he purchased his RCA 7316's from. I but mentioned old_guy_radiola as I am aware he has what appears to be fake 7316's for sale on ebay. As you experienced, from previous threads and some of his ads I've read, he is notorious for deceptive sales practices. And in his current sales and completed sales I've noticed gold plated old stock tubes made by manufacturers that never made gold plated tubes of the type he's advertising. Seems a sweet business model he has, inflate the price of more common old stock tubes as they are (recently) gold plated.
I sympathize with your experience with that dude. I had a somewhat similar experience with one of the better known Internet tube guys. I felt he sold me tubes deceptively. The majority of which had tilted glass envelopes and charged me full price. Now if the tilted nature of the tubes was disclosed prior to purchase, that's fine, and I'd have had opportunity to decide if I would buy them. But that was not the case. Later, he called me on the phone and stated the tubes are fine and work as advertised. Without any aggression or demands, I mentioned he should have allowed me to decide if I wanted tubes with tilted glass and besides other vendors who sell tilted tubes discount them. In stated disbelieve he indicated no one does that, then inquired what vendors and prove it. I am aware of at least 2 well-known vendors that discount such tubes. So while holding the phone in one hand and searching for ads on a website with the other, this tube guy starts swearing at me and hangs up.
I am not sure the tubes were made by RCA. The tubes have the square getter, but not the common RCA upper mica that is cut on two sides and contacts the glass about 60%. However, some RCA did not have the cut top mica in the 1950s. The tubes are not Amperex either as the tubes do not have the folded glass on top. Also, that getter type was not used in the 1960s per seller. They are 1950s series tubes.As for best sounding 12AU7, look for either Brimar 13D5 or CBS/Hytron 5814. I have no idea how the RCAs sound.
Edits: 11/23/16 11/23/16
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