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In Reply to: RE: NOS vs New Tubes posted by AudioSoul on May 31, 2016 at 13:23:21
Higher quality metals and alloys, glass, vacuum, phenolics, etc. Higher quality construction (welds, wire and glass quality, accuracy of construction, etc.). Higher QC criteria. Tighter, sustainable tolerances. Just plain higher standards overall resulting in higher quality.
It all adds up. NOS or new production? I'll stick with the former in EVERY instance.
"I can't compete with the dead" (Buck W. 2010)
"It would take me forever. I don't think I have forever" (Byrd 2015)
Follow Ups:
Nt
.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Now that's just mean...
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
At about 2:40 "bragging" :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I am ashamed to admit I don't know where I have that piece. In the Hot 5s or 7s, I suppose.
I thought he said put a $20 piece in his pocket, to show he died standing pat? He didn't ask for a tube which would have been current production at that time.
I'll try YouTube
I have a reissue, not sure which one - great music and sound.
In 1928, when Louis first made the song famous, those tubes would have been 17 years in the future.I went down to St.James Infirmary
Saw my baby there
She was stretched out on a long, white table
So cold, so sweet, so fairLet her go, let her go, God bless her
Wherever she may be
She can look this wide world over
But she'll never find a sweet man like me (bragging)When I die bury me in shoes,
I want a Boxback coat and a Stetson hat
Put a twenty dollar gold piece on my watch chain
So the boys will know that I died standin' patBy 1959, when the linked version of the song was recorded, they would have already been NOS.
The 6sn7w (metal base, tall black base and short black base) were only made during WW2.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 06/06/16
I want to talk to you Tre'. You get it. I want a current production matched quad of 6SN7s. Aways preferred short black base Sylvania Ws. They just sing. Like a late 50's Amperex Holland that never existed.
I need a matched quad due to my image inspecific otherwise amps and in spite of owning a dozen Sylvania Ws, a matched quad just doesn't exist there.
And yes, this is the lower case Joe of joe's tube lore. Any current production matched quad alternative in the universe?
peace, your mileage may vary, etc...
joe
Current production 6SN7s that I have tried, such as Tung Sol and standard Russian product along with regular Chinese product are tolerable at best. Not always terrible but nothing like or approaching the sound quality of even ordinary Sylvania 6SN7s from (circa) the 50s and not remotely close to the 6SN7W metal base tubes. In my mind the black based Ws are also very, very good.
There are other tube types where this applies but I have found the current production Gold Lion KT-88s (Russian) are indeed excellent as Mike Samra has pointed out. I am very happy with the lot I got from Jim.
Would that be new in the box, or used?
My used inventory is limited.
(just kiddin')
OAI?
"I can't compete with the dead" (Buck W. 2010)
"It would take me forever. I don't think I have forever" (Byrd 2015)
I gather you see the point, Byrd.
With all the new technology, what we have discovered in ceramics and glass, tighter manufacturing tolerances and many others that we have today. Look at automotive technology compared to the 30's till now. If they want to build a better tube they can.....
You're completely right. The technology is definitely there to build a better tube. I wouldn't even say materials or tooling are any kind of barrier, either. What made NOS tubes desirable are the tolerances. In the 60s, when you bought a 12AX7, you GOT a 12AX7, as per the spec sheet. Today, LOL, the typical values one refers can test from a little to WAY off: plate resistance, transconductance, amplification factor, and more. (see the link supplied below - highlights the variances between manufacturers, batches, and tolerances in QC).
The real barrier is the economics of tube production. Essentially, no one really needs them anymore, save for those who use them for antique restoration, Hi-Fi, guitar amps, radio broadcast, some satellite broadcast systems, and still-going Minuteman missiles lol. The whole industry that was predicated on the tube is essentially GONE.
So, while the available moneys for R&D, materials and tooling are an an issue, the other side of the coin (ie, "the market") is people's willingness to pay. And because this is a market that makes money per unit on low volume of sales, and really that means fewer opportunities for marginal profit and a poor investment for lenders.
Really, they can build wicked tubes, but they would cost 10x the regular, and people would still go elsewhere for the nuanced sound of another product. And to that effect, there ARE decent tubes in production today, including Gold Lion tubes by New Sensor, and a handful of high-end products out of China. But, they cost as much as a NOS tube (NOS that hasn't gone totally unobtainium). Some examples include:
-Gold Lion KT88, KT77 and KT66 - AWESOME vacuum quality (important for high voltage applications, in my experience).
-TJ Full Music / Northern Electric 12AX7 - awesome tube that closely follows tolerances.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
May your tubes be lively, warm, and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
The technology certainly does exist to make better tubes. Its just the market wont pay the cost. Back in the tube era, military, medical and other users demanded and got quality tubes. With todays small market, nobody can justify the cost involved to make tubes of that quality. The market just isnt there any more.
Amen. There is nothing new under the sun.
Edits: 05/31/16
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