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I have been playing around sampling output tubes in my Dennis Had Inspire Monoblocks. This has been a very enlightening experience.
While the JJ and Gold Lions are more alike than different, there are some areas where they differ substantially. The biggest difference is in the palpability of the images they create.
While both have excellent bass, the JJ's seem to produce a more well lit image. There is definitely more "air" around voices and instruments with the JJ's, especially in the high end of the sound spectrum. I suspect some of these differences will abate with time, but there seems to be a fundamental difference between the two tubes regarding how they image, with the nod going to the JJ's for their tremendous ease of sound.
As for the widely reported lack of durability of JJ octals, my experience leads me to believe that JJ tubes are NOT inherently problematical. Of all the tubes that I have used, including many JJ's, the only one that has failed is a NOS Adzam 6SL7 that went noisy on me.
The usual caveats apply..This is true for my system in my room. Your experiences may be different.
Follow Ups:
I've used both JJ and GL KT77's in one of Dennis Had's SE Inspire amps and have had no issues. Got the GL's from Jim and the JJ's, lightly used, that were originally sold by The Tube Store on the auction site. Both are good tubes but I liked the GL's more. At least we have choices and the new tubes are pretty darn good.
Jim is a good tube seller and dealers don't have to carry everything.
I have not tried the GL KT 77.
But I have posted numerous times that the JJ KT 77 is a very good sounding output tube. Fast, extended, detailed and airy. Some may find the mids a little thin sounding but better that to me than fat, syrupy mids. Use full/rich sounding driver tubes to alleviate this weakness.
Excellent value at well under $100 a quad. I have not had any problems with my quad, There have been reports of problems with early samples. Buy from a good dealer that does good testing. I got mine from thetubestore. Jon there told me they have not had any problems with these and a lot of positive feedback. Check the feedback on these on thetubestore website.
Enjoy the roll!
I agree with everything you said. Mine also came from The Tube Store.
I figure if JJ's are as bad as many people think, no manufacturers would supply them in their products. This point of view is a fine example of confusing opinions with facts.
I have distributed about 1000 JJ tubes, of them 3 was rejected by my
incoming tests, failed in customers device withing the guarantee period.
5 of 1000
But i guess that if one has been burned once one avoids that corner for a long time.
I use the gold lions in my VTL ST-80 and after a lot of tube rolling found them to be the most musical. Never tried the JJ's because Jim Mcshane would not cary them because of so many failures. My GL KT-77's have been running for 4 years. No problems
Alan
So four years ago Mcshane stopped carrying JJ because of failures and hasen't carried them since. The implication is that JJ has done nothing to correct the early problems with their octal tubes. I find this a little hard to believe.
So is it hard to believe because you feel I'm incompetent or a liar? Please let us know!
Why don't you ask another of the leading US tube retailers why HE doesn't carry them either? Ask Kevin Deal from Upscale Audio. Go look at his site, see how many JJ tubes he lists (answer = zero).
JJ did change the KT77 tube pin size back to the proper diameter, yes. But I've received enough reports over the years to tell me that I'd still find issues on them. I received communication from Mr. Tomas Jurco that told me they had no quality problems and that their quality was better than Tesla's. Quoting Tomas - "You talk about Tesla quality and differences between Tesla and JJ. Just for your information: Jan Jurco (and 5 next engineers at JJ worked in Tesla during more than 25 years) and they can compare quality of former Tesla and JJ. Their view is opposite to your." Ahem...Does ANYBODY believe that?
I've never said that JJ tubes couldn't sound good. At one time they were superb, and if the tubes are made properly I think they could still sound great. But the reject rate is simply too high for me to carry them. I won't put them in my own gear (other than the few JJ lines I carry), so I won't sell them. Sure, I could make money selling JJs, but I choose not expose my customers to products I won't use.
So Mr. datman, you go on believing what you want, but don't make vague accusations you can't substantiate about how I do business, okay?
Jim,As you mentioned, you have continued to carry certain JJ tubes. With regard to the ones you have not carried for a while, do you have a way to periodically check-in on them to determine whether you'd want to pick them up again? I imagine you'd have to risk buying a batch and see what happens, which I can appreciate may be an undesirable risk. But, other than reports from the field, how might you know firsthand if their quality might have improved to a point that you'd feel comfortable with?
Peter
Edits: 01/07/16 01/07/16
Yes, I sample them from time to time. I'm about to try another sample of the ECC803, and this year I'll likely sample the 6L6 line again. I miss the old red base 6L6GC JJs, they were excellent. The last JJs I sampled were the E88CC/6922 and the ECC83/12AX7. Not pretty, lots of duds.I tend to sample tubes I think may be a good addition to my stock, that's why the 6L6GC and the ECC803 are next. I also pay very close attention to reports from people I know and found I can trust their opinions.
And yes, I've TRASHED a number of JJ "samples" over the years.
For the record I carry the JJ ECC99, ECC832, and the EL84.
I want to set the record straight on something - something that seems to me has caused questions to be raised in this and other threads/posts.
1. I dealt ONLY with NOS/UOS tubes for years when I first started offering tubes for sale. I've seen it posted that I'm "anti-NOS" or such a number of times in the last few years. Not true. I simply find many new production tubes to be excellent performers and at affordable prices - along with being available both singly and in matched sets!
2. It sometimes seems that people think I get some special compensation or benefit from not selling JJ tubes - as if someone was paying me off not to handle the JJs or some such. That is not only not true, but ridiculous. I'd LOVE to have more good tubes to sell, JJs included!
3. I know some people have reached the conclusion that I think New Sensor can do no wrong, and their tube lines are all perfect. Not so! I go to the mat with them regularly over quality, policies, prices, etc. Hot issues lately have been tubes with tilted glass bottles, prices of the 6L6G coke bottle Tung-Sol, and a few other items. However, I find they do a very good job most of the time, even if they aren't perfect - and they aren't (neither am I).
I hope this gives some perspective about where I'm coming from. I'm just trying to earn a few bucks without mistreating my customers.
Edited to improve clarity
Edits: 01/07/16 01/07/16
I, as a very satisfied customer of Jim McShane, can vouch for everything he just said
Edits: 01/08/16
Jim,
Thank you for more fully articulating your position and making your motivations clear. It was a little hard to tell from your previous post, but understand that you were a bit riled-up.
Best,
Mike
"...but understand that you were a bit riled-up."
Not hard to get to that point around here, sometimes.
Very much of this thread reminds me what a piss poor substitute these boards are for face to face interaction. So easy to be misunderstood or give a wrong impression without benefit of facial expression, body language or vocal intonations. Like Mr. King said, can't we all just get along? A little patience goes a long way.
Agreed. Mea culpa if I became too impatient.
I would not want to support the idea, per se, of a product of questionable quality making its way into our amplifiers. And, I did have a bad experience with a set of JJ KT77.Even though I like the Russian tubes well enough, I'd really like to also have alternatives available among U.S. sellers who I trust (Jim being one of the few) for properly screened Chinese and JJ tubes. But, if it isn't a happening thing, then it isn't a happening thing, I guess.
Edits: 01/07/16 01/07/16
As i only have worked with JJ tubes less then 2 years i have not
experienced the ones delivered 4 years ago. My experience is
current production only, and there i have no complains.
I tried a quad of JJ KT77 about two years ago, and, frankly, they sounded dreadful - and I do not feel that it was just a matter of personal interpretation or taste.
tubular.well, are you a tube seller? Do you have a website?
Sorry, but hard to take you serious after that comment.
They may not have been your favorite tube in your amp but I doubt they sounded that bad. There are enough positive comments around including here and thetubestore website. Even Jim agrees that JJs sound good when they work.
I know you want to support Jim but is talking BS the best way to do it?
"Sorry, but hard to take you serious after that comment."So, if someone had an experience that differs from yours, you cannot take him seriously?
"They may not have been your favorite tube in your amp but I doubt they sounded that bad. There are enough positive comments around including here and thetubestore website. Even Jim agrees that JJs sound good when they work."
Who said my JJ KT77s were working properly? In fact, I consider it likely that they were not working properly which caused them to sound so bad. As I said, I don't believe it was a matter of mere taste. On the other hand, if they were working properly and what I heard was how they always sound, then I am not going to have a fit if someone else says they think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
"I know you want to support Jim but is talking BS the best way to do it?"
I was reporting on my experience. And, you don't know anything about my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jim McShane. I have on some occasions bought tubes from him and find him to be one of the better tube sellers out there, hence I wish he would get some more Chinese and JJ tubes. That's all.
Edits: 01/07/16 01/08/16
Well you never indicated that your JJs may not have been functioning properly, only that they sounded dreadful. Do your comments not make it sound as if the JJs are a bad sounding tube? This was misleading and it seemed you were ripping the tube because Jim won't carry them. Sorry for the confusion.
Jim, if you are checking out JJ tubes, the KT77 is one you should look into.
That's why it is wise to not jump on somebody due to a conclusion based upon something that was NOT said. Arguments from silence are insubstantial. I had referred to my set and again my quad of JJ KT77 that, yes, sounded dreadful, and I stand by that. If it was due to their being defective, fine. If not, and if someone likes that kind of sound, then more power to their elbow.
tubular-well.se
It's in swedish as i only want/need swedish market.
Edits: 01/07/16
Thank you for your civil response.
Just reporting my experience. If they fixed there quality problems, great. I still think the GL is one of the great tubes I have ever heard
Alan
I preferred the Gold Lion over the JJ and was able to run the JJ for a long time until they developed problems.
The GL just seemed more "cohesive" top to bottom, a bit less lively than the JJ and (as you say) more musical.
Both bettered a slew of vintage and new production EL34.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
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