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I've got a 6922 based phono preamp on the way that comes with EH tubes. While I like those tubes in my Modulus 3 preamp (they are among the few available that the Mod 3 won't chew up and spit out), I think I'd like a bit warmer, richer tube in the phono preamp.
I've always tended to prefer the classic tube sound, my first experiences being with classic Fisher and Scott receivers and integrated amps. The phono preamp will be paired with a SS integrated amp.
I'm told the current production JJs fit the description, and I have a pair of those, but are there any others, preferably current production or easily available NOS, that I should consider?
Thanks for any tips.
Opus 33 1/3
Follow Ups:
how many 6922's does it use?
charles
Henry,
There's really only two current 6922 worth mentioning, IMO. The JJ you already know (my hands-down choice theses days), and the GL 6922. The GL is quite a good tube and I really can't say bad things about it other than to say it just doesn't do it for me in the CAT SL1 like the JJ's do. I've always compared the sound of JJ's in the CAT to my Tele 6922s. The EH's have their virtues, but ultimately I always found them cold/sterile. As far as NOS goes, well how much time do you have? Everybody has favorite, but finding good/quiet ones these days is time consuming and expensive.
More progress reports on the Elacs after they're good a broken in, please.
Best, Mike
I agree with Sondek, the current production tube to try is the Gold Lion, Jim McShane can set you up with a nice pair.
I am assuming you want the 6922 or E88CC tubes or 7308s which I think are E188CC. The prices for true NOS, not just used pulls, which are ubiquitous in the market, is very high to silly high. Watch some Ebay auctions to get a feel for it.
If you want to try NOS you are looking at big money comparatively and the GLs aren't cheap. The warmest ones to try are the Philips tubes. The usual players like Mullard. The other Philips products aren't always so sweet and warm, I am thinking of the Amperex tubes, they are difficult to pin down because they were made all over. The USA white label tubes for instance are not warm, clean and to my ears well balanced but treble shy. The Dutch and English Philips/Amperex tubes are more likely to be what you want. But not always, I use Mullard CV2493s which are very clean and have a sparkling treble for instance they have a special designation of E88CC-01.
With that you have been warned! Good Luck
Steve
Hi, I thought that JJ's sound good with a sweet warm sound. I found them to sound like Tungsram's which are well regarded.
Why don't you email Shannon Parks, as your getting a little Budgie, "am I right.
I got a Budgie phono stage and CM1254 SUT, it's just about run in now and sounds fantastic, and not a hint of hum, came with EH tubes, haven't tried any others yet but I got some JJ's somewhere to try when I get around to it.
I hope that I haven't jumped the gun here but I can't think of another phono stage that uses 6922's.
Regards,
Mike.
I got the Budgie as well and it sounds great with the stock EH tubes. I briefly tried other tubes, such as vintage Mullard CV4110 (=E188CC). They are less punchy than the EHs but are more delicate and airy.
I wonder how dip switches work...
And I'll be using my CineMag 3440A SUT with it.
Opus 33 1/3
n/t
I used Bugle Boys in my Budgie and am really pleased with the results.
I find the Bugle Boys a little soft in my Cary SLI-80 but are very listenable.
The EH were hard in the mids and highs.
I am running Sylvania 7308's currently, an outstanding tube.
I am going to order a couple of pairs of RCA labeled Sylvania's as the 7308 tubes are too expensive nowadays.
$45/pair from Brent Jessee for the 6922's vs. $150-$250/pair elsewhere for 7308's.
I will try GL 6922's someday. I have not had the best of luck with GL though.
I ran the KT88's and they seemed to go south quite quickly. I also had the 12AX7 in my phono pre and one went bad after about 40 hrs. It was past the 30 day warranty period so I guess I am out of luck.
I also have the SLI-80 and also got the Budgie. Great combination!
Marlin: what power tubes and rectifiers are you using in your sli-80?
I am currently using TS KT120's and have tried GL, EH, and TS 6550's, I liked the GL KT88's but life span was an issue. I really like the KT120's full bodied and lack nothing. A lot more low end than 6550's.
for rectifiers I am using late 40's Sylvania.
...I am also using Sylvanias of the same vintage.
nt
I've used the Gold Lion 6922 in my conrad Johnson.
It is a full sounding, I would say better then even vintage types tube. Here comes the hate mail! However - use it if you have a top end you need to tame. Otherwise the EH is a great tube.
No hate, I am almost certain that it would be a good -warmer than neutral- sounding tube. Despite the money I have invested in more than a few "NOS" 6922 and 7308 types.
In truth I don't think the GL would be a great sub for a Mullard 2493, which is far and away my favorite, but I'm sure it sounds good in its own right.
Steve
tubes have their own personalities. The unfortunate part is that good NOS is starting to become harder to come by - for a reasonable price.The GL is just an option. But I do caveat that statement with it will tame a hot top end.
Edits: 11/12/15
Opus 33 1/3,
For those who don't like suspense and a lot of history and explanation, the answer is: Tungsram E88CC red label, late 60's to late 70's.
Since 1987, I was always looking for 6DJ8 family tubes for an Audio Research SP10 of certain quality. Like the Audible Illusion Modulus, the SP10 pushes the wrong choices to quick destruction, they need to be extremely quiet in the phono stage, and of course the various aspect of the sound had to be good: natural timbre, dynamic, open, and a strong soundstage.
Early on I learned that the best sounding tubes were 6DJ8's, that The more rugged the tube, the less open and dynamic,but I found that is the tube was also very energetic and punchy- a bit forward it compensated. I ended up buying quite a few- experimentation was not as expensive in 2001:
6DJ8 [17] 4 ln, 2, 8, 3 TOTAL: 99
6- Philips Miniwatt E188CC- Holland- NOS -VR5
2- Philips SQ E188CC- Holland -NOS- VR9
5- Valvo E188CC- Holland- NOS
2- Valvo E188CC- Holland- NOS
5- Amperex Globe-ECC88 A frame-NOS
3- RAM- ECC88 SA ln Ampx A frame-NEW
6- RAM - A std- Ampx - A frm- NEW
4- RAM -AA std- Ampx A frm -NEW
5- Amperex White Logo ECC88 USED
8- Amperex Orange Globe ECC88 USED
2- Harma 6922- 6H23EB- NOS
10-Russian 6DJ8- NOS
14-Russian -NOS
1- Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88- USED
28- Tungsram E88CC- Red- st pins- Hungary- NOS 69-79
2- Siemens & H E88CC- A-frame, gp- Germany- NOS
1- Siemens & H E188CC- Germany -NOS
2- Siemens & H- E88CC- splatter- Germany - NOS
1- Valvo E88CC- Red label, Holland- NOS
1- Philips E88CC- Holland- NOS
1- Siemens E88CC- NOS
2- Valvo E88CC- white label- NOS
2- Amperex US CEP E188CC- ANOS
3- Gold Aero 6DJ8- Amperex A-frame- Holland- USED (SP10)
After a lot of fuss, I ended up settling on early-mid 60's Valvo E188CC for the phone gain tubes, Siemens E88CC splatter shield for the line stage gain tubes. Then as NOS started to become very expensive, I bought a few Tungsram E88CC red label (military) as they were supposed to be copies of the Siemens and were both good sounding and rugged.
They turned out to very good sounding and rugged. I tried these in the SP10 phono stage and every one I tried was quiet and 95% good enough sounding. The sections were among the best matched I'd ever seen- none were more than 2% or so off- probably within the accuracy of my tester. You see in the list above I was impressed enough to buy a lifetime supply- 28. I think those cost about $25 or so from a Hungarian dealer Zeitman Tubes*** in 2005 or 6 and I highly recommend them.
***http://www.zeitmann-tubes.com
Cheers,
Bambi B
My motto: "Why use just one word when twenty will do just as well."
[Oracle III_SME V_AQ 200 / Dual 1219_Grado M141 (78 cartridge) / McIntosh MR67 /Cambridge Audio 640C v2 > Audio Research SP10 > Audio Research D115 > Vandersteen 2C (AQ King Cobra IC / AQ Rocket 88 speaker / AQ NRG power cords / Powervar 12A power conditioner]
Would like to try a pair in the Budgie for sure!
popsy,
Yes sorry about that. I hadn't been in touch with that seller for at least seven years. I think that when he started selling, he had over 10,000,but they were sold quickly and became expensive.
However, there were many, many made, a lot of them still in Eastern Eurpoe /Russia and the fact that modern production has improved means there are still Tungsrams that are reasonable:
1x Tungsram E88CC RED LABEL NOS > GBP 10.99 Approximately US $16.70
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Tungsram-E88CC-RED-LABEL-NOS-/121812675838?hash=item1c5c99ecfe:g:4BMAAOSwAYtWOe46
> and there are others in the $30 range, and a pair for $44. So they seem to still be good value, they might make a budgie sing. Of course, I haven't compared them to current production which must be very good as many E88CC I checked are less expensive than a few years ago. The premium models and E188cc /7308 can be very costly still.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Gear with 6DJ8 family tubes: Audio Research SP8, SP10, D115
just bought a quad for $48 plus shipping from Bulgaria so we shall see :)
popsy,I did notice some very good prices from Bulgaria and $12 each is amazing- less than I paid ten years ago.
Let me know how you like them. I felt these were close to the sound and noise level of mid 60's white label (the red label are the premium ones) Valvo E188CC (7308) and so far (3 years) none of the 6- Tungsram in the SP10 show any signs of problems.
Cheers,Bambi B
Edits: 11/13/15
Nice to see you posting again, and as per the past, you are a fount of the type
of useful info we need around hear!
Hope you are doing well!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
musetap,
Thanks, good to see a familiar name. I've been moving around a lot back and forth East and West coast, sold quite a bit of gear- only two Audio Research systems, two receivers, four tuners, and 700 NOS tubes.
Unfortunately I spend all my time listening to the Logitech z2300 computer sound system, but I do check in here occasionally, plus Vintage and Films.
How are things with you? Do I misremember or do you live in the Bay Area?
Cheers,
Bambi B
"No matter what your beauty, power, or wealth ,may be, the cheapest things in life are free." - Bambi B unemployed cat groomer
I just know I'd see pigs flying by.
Good to hear you're listening to a lot of music, no matter the source.
Still in SF, life is good and things shift in verrry teeny increments here, which is how we like it.
And, yes, Be Here Now!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
musetap,
Years ago I decided that once you've had SP10 you can never go back- no matter how much 7308's cost, but have had an ARC solid state system- LS3 / D130/ Infinity 360 for about 7 years. This was my previous office system, but it's not logical to run this 20 hours per day as background music.
Optional content:
These days, I just run YouTube videos minimized on the computer (HP z420 E5-1660v2) with an M-Audio 192 sound card- which has MIDI and is highly recommended to fill the pesky PCI slot and I run this to a Logitech z2300 2.1 system- 135W subwoofer and 45W satellites and wired remote with volume control and headphone jack- compact. I used to do this with the ARC LS3 system, but the satellite placement is actually so much better than the Infinity's off to the sides, this is fine. If you use computer sound much, there is a Logitech z313- 2.1 w/ wired remote 25W and all for $30. I bought two of these and use one on my secondary computer- (Dell Precision T5500 Xeon X5680 with M-Audio 192) and the other with a Dell Dimension E520 (Q6700 with M-Audio 2496 "Audiphile SC) and a 32" LCD TV. I haven't had TV cable for 20 years and this system runs library DVD/s, Netflix, and YouTube.
Cheers,
Bambi B
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Lots of different 6DJ8/6922's available. The sound has more to do with your circuit than the particular (heathy) tube. You can try some different ones as your milage will vary.
"*Note: Audible Illusions currently uses a Russian manufacture 6922 dual triode tube. The voltage-current maximum rating for this tube is somewhat higher than 6DJ8, ECC88 or 7308 tubes."
They also run the plate current at over 10mA for the line stage tubes. This means that they are running the tubes at Ouch. I would not put any tube in this other than the Sovtek 6922 as, in my opinion, the operating points are poorly selected for this tube type and you will kill tubes, as you have experienced.
It looks like you could use about anything you want in the "Phono Section 1" if you can identify that tube. That would be the only tube I would mess with.
In general, going for "the classic tube sound" means you want severely bandwidth limited caps, staved or saturated operating points, worn tubes, lots of internal capacitance from corroded circuits, etc. Not really a sound you get from a healthy tube in a healthy circuit. If you want to roll off the high frequencies, you can put in a simple RC filter.
Thanks Chip, I've never read anyone describe that classic tubey sound in such accuracy. I have built and given a friend of mine a couple amps,he is so used to console amps he does not seem to enjoy the sound of mine. JH
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