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In Reply to: RE: Spending $6K to $8K for amp/pre-amp and speakers posted by ivan_terrible on April 29, 2015 at 21:07:55
Obviously to those of us that actually know something about amplifiers, and I build them by hand, most of the Chinese tube amps flooding the market sound and perform far below any decent quality American or European made products due to the fact that they are made with the absolute cheapest parts, wire, and components out there.One thing is absolutely for sure here... these people care NOT about the purchaser of their products or their performance. There are AMERICAN amplifier manufacturers out there now that offer LIFETIME warranties on their products, because they actually do care about their customers and the products they make.
Try getting service on anything Chinese when they eventually break down, which will probably occur quickly in my experience. And then try to find someone here to service those pieces of garbage. I wouldn't!
With a few exceptions Chinese amps, tubes, and components are cheap "throw-away products" that are made only to get American dollars and to a lesser degree Euros out of the pockets of the "shiney object" lovers club, like some on this forum are obviously members.
DON'T FALL FOR IT~!
A good quality American made product is the way to go and service will be immediate in most cases when the rare problem does occur. There are excellent products available that are made right here in the USA that will fit well into your budget, and you might be able to even purchase a brand new amp and speakers for the upper end of your listed budget.
As a matter of fact, I know you can get a great performing amplifier and speakers that will last for decades for under $8,000 BRAND NEW!
RavenDave
Edits: 05/11/15 05/11/15Follow Ups:
"Obviously to those of us that actually know something about amplifiers, and I build them by hand,
...try to find someone here to service those pieces of garbage. I wouldn't!
..With a few exceptions Chinese amps, tubes, and components are cheap "throw-away products"
...A good quality American made product is the way to go ...
As a matter of fact, I know you can get a great performing amplifier and speakers that will last for decades for under $8,000 BRAND NEW!
RavenDave".
Is this your "expert opinion" because you find you can't compete with a well made asian amplifier?
I picked out a handful of your remarks to prove you could scarcely be relied upon to have an independent opinion.
What about the British valves, the German components, or the Swedish transformers?
I don't like to see or hear self aggrandising remarks about the so called "merits" of US made stuff.
It's nonsense, when you think that 99% of the world's computer mother boards are made in China or Taiwan, and you can type an answer to me, as a direct result of the 24/7/365 total reliability of their products..
ahum!
Now blaze away again with all your cannons firing about how great US stuff is (or isn't) when people like Studer and Neve recorded with Neumann mics have been recording the music you are listening to!
I don't need to respond further to your post. You obviously didn't read mine. Cherry picking to make your moot point is not a way to properly interact here. Your comments are not worth my or anyone else's time.
The man is looking for a good system and that is what this post should be about. Not any agenda, like preaching about audiophile value or whatever yours is about.
Helping the man find good quality and good value is what this post is about.
A limited lifetime warranty in high quality products is good enough to surpass anything you have to say on the subject.
RavenDave
Indeed.
Far may it be from me to hype second hand US stuff, but my amplifiers cost a grand total of 350USD, to which I added a few hours of labour, improving on the original design.
They are 50 years old, so I imagine they might well manage a further 25, by which time I doubt if I will still be listening to them...
The speakers I made myself, but it was a long time ago, so that doesn't really count.
I know for sure there's not a single "hi end" system out there I heard today, sounding as good.
To my mind spending even 3K is ridiculous hype in today's world, where with the internet you can mix and match stuff perfectly from all over the world, which you couldn't do 10-15yrs ago, or read stuff from Broskie make your own, or buy a modern Dynaco clone.
Information is power, and the internet makes it happen.
(if you know how of course!)
Sorry to hear about your poor hearing and the fact that your business knowledge/prowess is non-existent. The tubes in our integrated amplifiers cost more than $400, so what you are saying is certainly not very useful and absolutely lacking in real-world knowledge on the subject.
The man asked about building a system for a certain price point. I am sure he is not looking for a 50-year old piece of equipment, nor home-made/altered speakers. This is YOUR opinion and is of NO use here in this forum.
If you are not offering experienced or knowledgeable information (which you certainly are not) then you should keep your views and personal feelings to yourself. But let's look at the real costs of building a new amplifier, preamp, speaker, or whatever in real world costs.
It costs about $125 to cut, fold, weld and fill a single entry level steel integrated amplifier cabinet in preparation for painting, which then costs an additional $150 for a decent multi-coat job. Then the preamp plate, faceplate, and transformer cover must be carefully attached, after everything is baked and dried for about 5 days.
The input and output speaker and source terminals cost an additional $125 and then one has to build and wire the large components and then assemble and solder and attach them all into a working amplifier inside that finished cabinet.
Skilled technical labor and craftsmanship are not free, and that cost often exceeds the parts cost for a high quality build.
Then the entire unit must go through a rigorous testing procedure and burn-in process before it is ready for sale so we know it will be a dependable product that will last a lifetime, or at least the lifetime of its parts. That costs quite a bit also.
The faceplate and preamp plate must be machined and anodized and that costs several hundred per set, though we must again commit to a minimum order for this as well. If we built anything singly it would cost hundreds of dollars more apiece.
The Alps Black motorized volume costs us about $124 each and we must purchase a minimum of (100) to get them at that price. Then there are the high end capacitors, transformers, and other high end parts that we use that also add a few hundred more.
A lot of the Chinese amplifier manufacturers these days that are flooding Amazon and Ebay would spend about $50.00US total on everything including the PC board~! UGH. I've seen many of them because I have been asked to repair/rebuild them for years, and the quality is going down, not up - on most... not all of course.
The balance of the finishing parts such as the sonic feet, handles, etc. adds to the final cost, so your prices are impossible for anyone to achieve at any professional commercial level, so even our parts cost is several times what you are claiming.
We give all of our customers a limited lifetime warranty on all of our products as long as they own the amplifiers or preamps. Your Chinese/Asian claim and obviously your personal stuff has no such insurance for a person looking for a good dependable high quality audio system.
So in the end what you say is of no use whatsoever, and to write personal feelings about audio when you have nothing of any value to offer for the person looking for something specific or general is ludicrous at best. It is somebody else's money, not yours, so you are at best not helping to communicate any knowledgeable information at all to this subject, nor to answer any of the man's requests accurately.
The truth is, all of your opinions are of absolutely no value in the real world. So please do us a favor. Keep this all to yourself so those of us that know about the real world of electronics and the real value of such can communicate.
Thanks
RavenDave
----
"Sorry to hear about your poor hearing and the fact that your business knowledge/prowess is non-existent.The tubes in our integrated amplifiers cost more than $400, so what you are saying is certainly not very useful and absolutely lacking in real-world knowledge on the subject.
The man asked about building a system for a certain price point. I am sure he is not looking for a 50-year old piece of equipment, nor home-made/altered speakers.This is YOUR opinion and is of NO use here in this forum.
If you are not offering experienced or knowledgeable information (which you certainly are not) then you should keep your views and personal feelings to yourself. But let's look at the real costs of building a new amplifier, preamp, speaker, or whatever in real world costs.
It costs about $125 to cut, fold, weld and fill a single entry level steel integrated amplifier cabinet .....
The input and output speaker and source terminals cost an additional $125 ... assemble and solder and attach them all into a working amplifier inside that finished cabinet.
Skilled technical labor and craftsmanship are not free, and that cost often exceeds the parts cost for a high quality build."
---I will answer your points one by one:-
1/ Hearing:-
My hearing is certainly FAR more acute than yours will ever be and much better trained. There is ZERO doubt this aspect.I recently tested it. I was astonished to see it still extends to over 17khz.
This is at your age, a figure which you can only dream of (let's say you are lucky if you can approximate to 9-10k -10dB).I don't imagine you know anything about recording some of the best musicians in the world, nor would they let you near them, so let's stop there shall we?
2/ The price of your valves:-
Let's say it must be YOU that has the poor business judgment.I can easily buy the best there is available for a complete 75W amplifier for less than 150 USD. You heard of the internet yet?
Speak more than ONE language?
Right I thought not, without it you will continue to pay too much.3/ American rates?
Yes you have priced yourselves into voluntary bankrupcy.
Why the heck would anyone be so STUPID as to want to make a product in the USA when you can get labour rates 1/5 to 1/10 of that in Ukraine or Poland?
Did you ever hear the word Poland, Hungary or Romania.
They're no longer in the USSR pal!4/ If you want to get taken seriously and want respect stop talking bollox, and admit you are out of your depth.
I wanted a transformer made last few weeks, after taking offers from literally ALL OVER THE WORLD.
The US suppliers (apart from surplus sales stuff) were invariably both sub-standard, over priced & inflexible.Even SOWTERS in England could undercut you, and their stuff is 20X better than Stancor, or whatever you like to name.
If I wanted something mega expensive I wouldn't buy Swedish but BELGIAN.Hey, you know there's even people on the internet selling BRAND NEW old stock stuff from Partridge or Parmeko, that superb 50 year old material which you are saying people don't want, and lasts like Swiss Studer equipment literally for ever.
I must say the biggest shock coming back to this stuff after all these years is seeing the time warp, and the prices for old electronic gear multiple x 25.
I reckon you are just another one of those trying to justify these sky rocketing prices by any excuse in the book, then trying to shoot the messenger, cos you can't find any other solution.
As for my own system.
It does what I want it to do, which is to show up all the crap in other people's recordings, and the stupidly overpriced, overhyped dross which passes for "hi end" , just because the old fogeys that buy it are deaf.I'm not sad it's American made, but now it has a mixture of Russki, Brit and Yankee all over it.
Edits: 05/11/15
Pure idiocy on so many levels. I hope the room you are hiding in is locked from the outside... and overseas... because you are indeed "terrible" for our country "ivan".
I believe in America. My business acumen is just fine. I run my business exactly how I do because I want to. And that is what freedom all about. I don't want to go overseas for my labor.
And my business is doing just fine. I suspect yours is... at a minimum overseas. And YOU are exactly what is wrong with this country. Not to mention always trying to tell others what to do and how to do it... and how you and your way are always best.... bull____!
RavenDave
"I believe in America. I don't want to go overseas for my labor.
....always trying to tell others what to do and how to do it... and how you and your way are always best.... "
--
Well NO.
I don't tell others how to do it, but at least I don't go ignorantly raving about the Chinese doing nothing right, when you are using their Iphones, cameras, computers, and internet routers for just about everything that is written here.
It's called CHOICE.
The right to buy whatever you think is the best value for money, and the USA is certainly NOT that.
Just STOP for a minute and put your brain in gear.
You DON'T believe in America, because you asked some giant in Asia to make it cheaper for you, because you are patently unable to make at that price in the USA.
This is called being in denial.
Job's company Apple which is the richest one in the USA can tell you that NOW, which is why it's so big.
They don't make any of their I-stuff in the USA, but a friend of mine designs their chips, for them to make them in PRC.
Everything has a price.
The world is an international place, which again is PRECISELY the reason why I bought 2 old valve amps in the USA, then mucked around with them to make a really good system from all they could do with the "pearls in the muck" which was to use them for PA work.
I am being nice to you, despite the constant attempts to attack me personally.
What appears to be a REAL worry on your part,is that I can undermine the more lunatic audiophile fringe with 500USD of kit, just like I can undermine the DAC lunatics spending 1000s of USD on convertors with a good second hand semi professional 50 USD DAT machine to use as a DAC.
I pointed out you were wrong, and refuse to listen.
I can't alter this behaviour, because I can see the vested interests of all concerned.
It's exactly this unscientific bollox that turns me off about the whole "hi end" audiophool world.
Does any of this have anything to do with the original post? Can't you guys spare us your pissing contest?
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