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Hi folks
I didn't really have a chance to chime in on that thread about the guy on Ebay selling Chinese Westinghouse EL34's at first as European, then made by Philips.
I don't want to run this into the ground, but just to make it clear. The auction said clearly made in Holland. He then changed it to imply they were Philips, which would be a Sylvania. They were in Westinghouse boxes. Why would he say they were Philips?
Look at his other auctions. He has feedback for 1400 transactions in the last 12 months!! He knows about getters having foil strips on early Amperex 12AX7's and charges $$$$ for them. He knows about the Westinghouse EL34's he has with XF2 markings and charges $$$$ for them.
Every tube dealer knows how to ID a Chinese power tube. The getter ring. And he said he spent hours trying to ID them. Bullsh*t. That's why I was hard on him with my message.
I look around on Ebay and see tons of stuff like this and these guys prey on people who don't know. And they will all say what he said. I don't believe him for a second.
He didn't do a thing about it until I posted here, and some of you guys complained to Ebay and to him.
One more thing: Look at the highly used Tung-sol 6550 solid plate he is selling for $244/single. He doesn't take a picture of it from the top to show how much the getter is burned. He says it tests strong at 56 on a TV-7. Look at the other 6550's. Burned up.
Sorry if my messages to him were offensive, but they were to him privately as I knew he would resist and not take them down. And I was right.
Follow Ups:
Obviously, I had hoped that this was over. But, Mr. Deal has re-emerged to pump air into his alternate reality concerning eBay seller "thearmyofgoodmusic." Recalling evidence that has been presented, it seems appropriate enough to call for a public apology from Mr. Deal to Mr. Bowman, eBay ID "thearmyofgoodmusic." as follows:1) A clear and unequivocal public apology, without qualifications, from Mr. Deal for the name-calling and for the grossly disrespectful tone and tenor of his e-mail to Mr. Bowman .
2) A clear and unequivocal public apology, without qualifications, for Mr. Deal's apparently willful misrepresentation of Mr. Bowman's eBay listing. In particular, Mr. Deal repeatedly claimed that Mr. Bowman represented the tubes as being made in Holland, when the evidence presently supports that Mr. Bowman never made such a claim . It was also explained well, here .
3) There should be no concurrent call from Mr. Deal for a further apology from Mr. Bowman. (Mr. Bowman has long since apologized for, and corrected, his apparently honest mistake identifying the tubes as "Phillips.")
I think it would also be imperative for Mr. Deal to permanently remove the page on his website where he publicly embarrasses his own customers:
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/unbalanced/ There is no justification for maintaining this web page, no matter how lighthearted Mr. Deal might claim it is intended to be, or for any other reason Mr. Deal may be tempted to use to rationalize its existence.
Edits: 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/28/15
I forgot he had two auctions. One saying Holland, one saying Philips. I e-mailed him about the one which said they were Philips. This auction below is the one which said Holland and was revised on Mar 17, 2015 16:32:05 PDT.That's when he took "Holland" out.
But being dishonest by virtue of omission, he said he didn't modify the auction, and made a big deal out of that, calling me dishonest instead. He killed the auction before he posted here so it couldn't be found and didn't think anyone COULD find it.
But I did.
And I stand by what I said. If me letting someone know he is screwing people and letting tube buyers know it too is an issue, so be it.
Edits: 04/28/15 04/28/15
This is the first time we are seeing this listing. This is, IIRC, the first time Mr. Deal is informing us that there were actually TWO separate listings that he had concerns about. This newly revealed listing is completely different from the one Mr. Deal himself has been making an issue out of all along that he twice posted links to, last month.Why didn't Mr. Deal clarify this before letting so much water pass under the bridge?? It's not like there haven't been plentiful opportunities for Mr. Deal to respond like this, before today. He is now saying "he forgot." So, does this mean that Mr. Deal... simply made a mistake?? Okay by me! But, he has to extend that kind of understanding to others, as well.
I hope that Mr. Deal realizes how terribly confusing it is to the issue, to reveal this information so late in the game. It would have been really nice if Mr. Deal had kept the listings straight from the outset, which would have saved a lot of time and trouble here. If Mr. Deal started out having an issue with this newly revealed listing, why did he originally opt to do a two-step and substitute an entirely different listing to make his point, without telling us it wasn't the actual listing that he claimed said "Holland??"
We can only go by the information that is presented to us.
Given that this is a separate listing from the one that has been under discussion thus far, it is therefore, strictly speaking, a separate issue in and of itself. Arguing dishonesty from silence on the part of Mr. Bowman regarding a listing that hasn't even been known about until this afternoon is just silly. It's just like any other argument from silence. You simply do not know what Mr. Bowman had in mind, no matter what you claim your "gut" may be telling you.
This new revelation does not change anything about the disrespectful tone and tenor of Mr. Deal's e-mail to Mr. Bowman. Nor does it change the shocking way he embarrasses his own customers on his website. Nor does it change the fact that none of us can read Mr. Bowman's mind to know whether he willfully misrepresented his tubes or if he simply made mistakes like Mr. Deal has made significant mistakes in this thread. Strictly speaking, the revision history of this newly revealed listing does not tell us exactly what was revised, either. So, in posting this "new" information, Mr. Deal has proven nothing.
Mr. Deal has no excuse to be anything other than respectful in dealing with people, regardless of the circumstances. By rights, he needs to rein-in his self-appointed, draconian "authority." I, and, I am sure, others, have a collection of tubes and other gear that we may likely need to sell on eBay someday, about which I/we will have imperfect knowledge. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't welcome anyone breathing down my neck and trying to trip up my efforts to sell my own things. No sir.
Edits: 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/29/15
Agreed +1
Agreed.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Kevin, you are hanging on by what little thread you got left.My messages between you and I back up you never said anything about tubes made in Holland because I never did either. After you accused me of scamming and told me these were Chinese tubes i changed the title and description to "Westinghouse label" and country of manufacturer to "unknown". I did this the same day you told me that I may be wrong. As opposed to just trusting you and your vicious messages I changed the listing until I could do further research to corobarate your opinion. I never once said anything about made in Holland...that my friend is a stone cold lie. Now if you want to do a screen shot of the message you sent me telling me to take off the word Holland go ahead and put that up for the good people here to see. You will have a hard time with that one because it doesn't exist. I already posted word for word every single word you and I ever said to each other here...that doesn't match your story of contacting me telling me they werent Holland and then I changed to Philips ECG. I said they were Philips ECG (which I was wrong about) the WHOLE TIME. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE PUT THIS TO REST.
I was wrong for indetifying the tubes as something they were not. You were wrong for how you called me out on it. Get over it and move on. I nor my little side business are no threat to you and your business. Stop trying to stir the pot. You are making me reply to you to have to defend myself. If you just stop both of us can just be done with this foolish argument. But, every time you can't let go you make both of look ridiculous. I feel like I'm in high school again for gods sake.
Edits: 04/28/15
My message to you informed you they were not made in Holland and why. I did that because it said HOLLAND. You're full of it.If what you say is true, why did you cancel the auction that said Holland, and leave the other one up telling people it was never revised? Why not leave it up?
Because it was edited.
The other one said CLEARLY "Made by Philips ECG" and you NEVER changed it even after I explained it to you.
The facts are simply you had two auctions, one saying Holland and the other saying Philips ECG.
I informed you of this on 3/15, and explained it fully why they were Chinese.
You told me "go ahead and report me to whatever site or whatever you run. Im not gonna be bullied "on 3/16.
I told you I would put it in a forum 3/16.
I put it here on AA 3/17.
You revised Holland on 3/17, and then you took both down only after heat was applied.
That's all there is. If I hurt your feelings in my terse message, I'm sorry. But the fact is that nothing was done to make it honest until I posted here. Nothing. And you told me you wouldn't be pushed around.
Edits: 04/28/15 04/28/15
Read the stuff above, and the dates.
My mistake is I'm trying to run a business here and didn't list both of his auctions.
I wanted him to simply fix the auctions and he didn't do so, and told me he wouldn't be "pushed around", including the auction stating they were Philips ECG , until it was posted here.
That's it guys.
OK, so you obviously have all those messages we sent back and forth. If you told me to to take a listing down because I claimed they were made in Holland take a screen shot of that message in the eBay messages and post it here. If you want to show me and everyone else the truth show us that evidence.....and don't follow this up with some bologna that the message is gone or something like that. Those messages are saved for 60 days. I await your response. You just can't admit we both made mistakes can you?
I agree 100%! Mr. Bowman of "thearmyofgoodmusic" deserves a public apology and a better one than the lame apology he gave to Mr. Bouwman of Vintage Tube Service.
Totally agreed !!!
kc
In spite of Mr. Deal's assertions to the contrary, the apparently non-existent revision history of Andrew Bowman's disputed eBay listing seems to settle the question of whether or not Mr. Bowman ever described the tubes originally in question as being made in Holland. At this point, it looks like Mr. Bowman never made such a claim. Unless and until someone comes up with something that plausibly trumps this revelation, it also seems to lend support to the belief that Andrew Bowman has been honest throughout the course of three long and painful threads in this forum since last month, where Mr. Bowman has had to repeatedly defend himself against Mr. Deal (and, to an extent, against Mr. Deal's devotees) who is a powerful entity in the audio industry.Hopefully, anyone concerned will thoroughly read through all three threads to gain a thorough understanding of what took place. Here are links to the three threads in reverse chronological order:
The beginning of the thread you are in now
Going forward, I see no reason not to look to Andrew Bowman, eBay identification "thearmyofgoodmusic," as a viable possibility for tube purchases. What to think of Mr. Deal and his behavior is something that everybody would probably best decide for themselves. In any case, I sincerely hope that this matter is now finally settled.
Peter
Edits: 04/26/15 04/26/15 04/26/15
I don't think he ever denied calling it Holland. And after he took that off, he still said it was a Philips when it was not true. He has been doing this for a living for close to 20 years.
On his website Vintage Tube Services he discusses the little-known details he uses to detect fakes. He states: "like so many of the Chinese and Russian companies was of very low quality and is either over or under size. As a V.T.S. shopper there is no chance of any of this ending up in your equipment."
No chance? He answered he "spent hours" trying to figure out where this tube was made. He knows as much as I do which factories made EL34's, what they look like, and what years they were made. Chinese tubes are easiest to spot just by the "washer" getter ring. It's unique to them. You can't be a 20 year "expert" and not know this. Go through his website and look at the way he explains his knowledge. Really?
Was I rough on him in my message I sent privately? Yes. It was for his eyes, I'm not trying to protect his feelings. I wanted him to know I knew it was wrong. Firmly. And he still told me to punch off.
Everybody doing this crap on Ebay pleads ignorance.
It's easy to play dumb and refund it if you get caught. If you don't get caught, you made more money. That's what people do with tubes.
.
"I can't compete with the dead". (Buck W. 2010)
"Didn't know it was Andy Bowman. If true, it makes my point"No, according to the gentleman being discussed, he is not the Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services, and I don't see any reason to doubt this. The individual being discussed coincidentally has almost the same name. This was abundantly clear from the start and was reinforced previously in this very thread, here . Confusing, though, because, IIRC, Mr. Deal seemed to have a handle on this in the earlier threads, and, IIRC, Mr. Deal even previously quoted the eBay user ID of his prey, "thearmyofgoodmusic."
"I don't think he ever denied calling it Holland. And after he took that off, he still said it was a Philips when it was not true. He has been doing this for a living for close to 20 years."
It is rather incredible that at this point Mr. Deal continues to say that the eBay listing in question said "Holland" when convincing evidence has already been provided that shows it never said "Holland" to begin with. The correct Mr. Bowman and others have pointed out that there is no revision history visible in the eBay posting, therefore nothing was removed. Look here . It was also explained well, here . This one issue apparently comprises a very serious credibility problem for Mr. Deal.
"On his website Vintage Tube Services he discusses the little-known details he uses to detect fakes. He states: 'like so many of the Chinese and Russian companies was of very low quality and is either over or under size. As a V.T.S. shopper there is no chance of any of this ending up in your equipment.'"
Irrelevant, since, again, this apparently has nothing to do with the Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services.
"No chance? He answered he 'spent hours' trying to figure out where this tube was made."
In spite of this, yes, he still simply made a mistake. Have you ever made a mistake? I have a friend who was recently looking for a part for his amplifier. He had looked all over and couldn't find it. I found it for him in a few minutes on-line. Does this mean my friend was dishonest or unintelligent? No, it means he just didn't find it, but I did, and that's all.
"He knows as much as I do which factories made EL34's, what they look like, and what years they were made. Chinese tubes are easiest to spot just by the 'washer' getter ring. It's unique to them. You can't be a 20 year 'expert' and not know this."
No matter which Andy Bowman/Bouwman we are talking about, how does Mr. Deal, or anyone for that matter, get to a point of clairvoyance such that he can state with certainty what someone else does or does not know?
"Go through his website and look at the way he explains his knowledge. Really?"
Irrelevant, since, again, this apparently has nothing to do with the Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services.
"Was I rough on him in my message I sent privately? Yes. It was for his eyes, I'm not trying to protect his feelings. I wanted him to know I knew it was wrong. Firmly. And he still told me to punch off."
It was indeed a private e-mail and would have likely remained private except that Mr. Deal was the one who decided to make it a public matter! Mr. Bowman therefore had no choice but to defend himself publicly. Would any of us do any differently if we were similarly attacked? And, exactly who appointed Mr. Deal to a position where he is free to throw his considerable weight around in such an abusive manner (a way of saying: "Who does Mr. Deal think he is?)? Let's go back to the actual content of Mr. Deal's e-mail to the individual we are discussing. Try reading through the particulars and ask yourself how you would feel if you were spoken to in this manner .
"Everybody doing this crap on Ebay pleads ignorance."
Very generalized accusation. I'm sure there are some who are willfully dishonest, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are likely many honest people "guilty" only of having imperfect knowledge of the things they want to sell. Does this deserve a flogging? Buyers also have a responsibility to themselves to have some understanding of what they want to buy.
"It's easy to play dumb and refund it if you get caught."
Attributing motivation to others is just about impossible. No one can read anyone else's mind. At least be glad there are choices for different sellers so that no one person gains a monopoly.
With the kind of evidence presented in the three threads, especially this third thread, it engenders a feeling of incredulity that Mr. Deal is still sticking to basically the same things he said previously. Has Mr. Deal not been paying careful attention to all of the information that has been made available in the three threads, especially this third one? Until or unless someone produces evidence to the contrary, the Mr. Bowman who has been the object of Mr. Deal's ire has done a very convincing job of proving his innocence in this situation, and I would think that many reading this would agree.
You know... I'm sorry, but this is getting weird. There's some kind of disconnect here with Mr. Deal. I now cannot help but muse over the potential implications if Mr. Deal does the tube matching himself at Upscale Audio..?
Edits: 04/27/15 04/27/15 04/27/15 04/27/15
I would have been shocked if he had actually done it. I would think he does a good job at Vintage Tube Services.Regardless of all this, seller clearly stated they were Philips for no good reason. And I don't believe that a guy that does 1400 transactions in 12 months, getting absolute top dollar for things that he knows are real and telling you why they are worth top dollar (triple mica, solid plates, XF2 codes, foil getter), just didn't know.
As to my comments about people claiming ignorance, that's exactly what they do. I know a seller there in Hong Kong that prints up his own boxes and re-labels used tubes as a course of business. If somebody complains, which is a small percentage, he simply refunds quickly and easily.
There are a lot of people selling good tubes on e-bay, but those that don't know the tricks of the trade like alluding to something being made in a country or factory when it wasn't, not photographing the getters, and giving measurements that newbies can't understand instead of simply saying "this tube tests fair"
As to who tests our tubes, I don't do it. It's done by Tamara Cox, who is the daughter of my good friend and advisor Roger Cox, the now retired Vice President of Fender Musical Instruments. She's been around it a bit and has superb attention to detail. I love testing tubes personally. It's very peaceful.
But I do look at every single order myself. Every one.
Edits: 04/27/15
You are an idiot Deal. Your original attack was not on Andy Bouwman of V.T.S., but was Andy Bowman doing business on eBay as: thearmyofgoodmusic. Notice the different spelling, NOT THE SAME PERSON. Read the total thread, he did deny putting Holland in the description and the eBay listing backs him up. I am beginning to think you don't know what you are talking about and could be a questionable dealer sponsor choice on AA.
Could be!
If it were me, and what you say is true, I'd give serious consideration to contacting an attorney.
That said, I don't sell tubes on the internet but have a storage room full of them. Many are worth big bucks as I've been a collector for two decades plus I am getting old so I may start serous selling soon.
Peter,you are the most honest person in this thread,thank you.
kc
This thread has been a bit of an anthology of Yuk.
You can't even trust tube selling shops - I live in Hong Kong and a tube seller (wi-wi??) sells fakes and the real deal depending on whether they think you know what you're looking at.
I usually buy from thetubestore.com but they don't offer the wider NOS selection.
Ok Mr. Deal, how do you explain this?
You accused the seller of using the word Holland in his ad, then removed it and replaced it with Philips. Now, if this did indeed occur, there would be a note on the left side of the auction page, just below the Description - Shipping and payments tab.Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing.
Last updated on March ?? , 2015 11:39:01 PDT View all revisionsBy clicking the revisions word, the history of all revisions would appear and listed by category.
Buy it now price
Shipping
Payments
Item description
etc.Your link to his item below reveals that there was no revisions made during the time the listing was active. Andy Bowman insists he did not change the description. It seems the lack of a revision backs up his claim.
Edits: 04/23/15
Here is a screen shot of the listing to help prove this point. I never once made a single revision to this listing.
You are right..Thanks for clarifying.
Here's what you can change about your auction before bids have been placed (and when it does not end within 12 hours):
The title or description of your auction
The item category
The item's Minimum Bid price
The item's Buy It Now price
A Reserve Price (add, change, or remove)
The duration of your listing
The URL address of the picture you're including with your auction
A Private Auction designation (add or remove it)
Accepted payment methods, payment methods, checkout information, item location, and shipping terms
When you revise an auction, eBay puts a little disclaimer on your auction page that reads Seller revised this item before the first bid. (Think of it as automatic common courtesy.)
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Please, please, please, haven't we beaten this horse enough?
I am tired of this subject taking up space. Enough has been said already.
It appears both parties were wrong in some way or another. Just move on already!
Amen!
I agree 100%.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Too many obvious vested interests here for this thread to mean much.
Sorry..a trustworthy seller does not 'guess' about the tube. Do the research B4 it's listed. Pretty simple.
So far it's perfectly reasonable to say that the evidence in this thread supports that Mr. Bowman did not "guess." It seems like he simply made a mistake, he made it right, and that's all. Who never makes mistakes? Mr. Bowman has also made it clear that if he had been approached in a civilized manner from the outset, that this imbroglio would have been avoided.Trustworthy sellers do not grossly disrespect others or misrepresent other seller's listings, either, like Mr. Deal may very well have done.
This has not been about two sellers "scrapping." It's about a little fish trying to fend off a big fish.
I really wish this thing would go away. I'd rather not keep adding to this thread, but...
Edits: 04/25/15 04/25/15 04/26/15
.
In all fairness tho Peter,it only shows an edit or a change if there are no bids on the item.You can edit an auction ad a thousand times and nobody would know as long as there was no bidding activity on the item.Once that happens,it shows it as an edit. I didn't see the made in Holland and it's Kevin's word against Andy's.The way it was handled is what set you and me off.This thread has gone on far too long over a couple of tubes..There are a ton of sellers on Ebay that are legitimate shisters and we all seem to be concentrating on one seller over one item for so long..It's getting ridiculous now.
If Kevin would have posted the original ad,that would have solidified the argument that this wasn't on the up and up. That didn't happen and I didn't see the original ad so we are going on the premise of he said she said.We can assume Kevin's wonderful name and reputation in the business but then the way it was handled raised an immediate red flag.It almost seemed like a personal vendetta of one seller against the other.
I surely didn't think the seller would sell a pair of Holland made NOS/NIB EL34s for a 119 dollars.That's the other thing that made me question whether he said they were made in Holland.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 04/23/15
Hi Mike,It seems to me like Andy has had to be on defense against Mr. Deal's, and, to an extent, his devotees', relentless aggressions. I honestly don't see this as a bilateral vendetta. I find this to be consistent with the fact that Mr. Deal has devoted a page on his website to publicly embarrassing his customers, which, frankly, seems pretty over-the-top. Andy removed his faulty listing. Will Mr. Deal remove the dunce cap he has placed on his customers' heads (who he calls "crazy") and take down the web page www.upscaleaudio.com/unbalanced/ ?
I've never been overly concerned about the Holland thing, because, as you pointed out, the manner in which this situation was handled by Mr. Deal from the outset was what set you and I off, and rightly so. IMO, this is just as significant as any issue with the tubes.
Even my wife has looked at this situation and has commented on whether she can expect to be attacked by Mr. Deal after I die some day and she tries to sell my tube sets - with imperfect knowledge of them. Heck, how many AA members who frequent these forums know all there is to know about their gear? What if any of us want to sell off some of our stuff on eBay? Are we going to be bullied by a cadre of self-appointed tube mavens who don't like the way we list our stuff for sale - or how we part our hair?
I agree that enough is enough. I'd like to see this end. Thank you for your thoughts, Mike.
Peter
Edits: 04/23/15 04/25/15
"In all fairness tho Peter,it only shows an edit or a change if there are no bids on the item.You can edit an auction ad a thousand times and nobody would know as long as there was no bidding activity on the item.Once that happens,it shows it as an edit."I am sorry Michael but that is not accurate. All revisions are recorded, bids or not, same with fixed price listings. Mr. Deal is not being honest.
Edits: 04/23/15
I change ads a lot before the first bid and I never noticed it but you are right..The only way to beat it is to cancel the ad and redo it.
I used to edit my own auctions before any bids and I never noticed that little box but when I add words to the auction after I had received bids,it shows it in red that I have added additional information.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 04/23/15
Recent example @ the following link.
.
Mr. Deal,
Another example of my post above, about revisions, can be seen in the link below.
I am sure you remember.
Edits: 04/23/15
Who paid these silly price for a crap sounding valves,I dump more than ten to the bin,if that call platinum,what do you call these
kc
Thank you! Finally someone knows how to show proof that I indeed never revised that listing.
Wow, i cannot believe we are still gonna talk about this.Read this clearly please. NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THE TUBES IN QUESTION HERE WERE MADE IN HOLLAND. I NEVER SAID THAT TO BEGIN AND THEN CHANGED THE LISTING LATER TO SAY PHILIPS ECG. THE LISTING SAID PHILIPS ECG THE WHOLE TIME.
All the people on this forum admit they know what kind of person Kevin Deal is and then they just trust his word??
He is a liar. Trying to protect himself from the shame he has gotten by attacking me in the manner that he did. He changed his story after the fact to say i listed these tubes as Holland made to try to turn the focus back to me and make it look worse. Saying that i knowingly misrepresented tubes. I didn't know how to identify Chinese tubes because ive made it a point to not buy them...look at my history i sell all USA or Euro tubes. I made a mistake...then apologized for it. Now Kevin keeps bringing this up because people realize he is in the wrong to attack before giving someone you don't even know the benefit of the doubt.
I'm tired of this. My name is Andy Bowman. I'm 30, i live in Burton, MI ...i am not some other seller as a previous poster claimed I may be. Ive been selling tubes since i was 15. My father was a tv and radio repair man. He bought me a box of tubes from a garage sale when i was 15. I sold them for a nice profit and with his help i've been learning my way ever since. When people in this industry meet me in person they say im a breath of fresh air because i am young and dedicated to keep this nostalgia alive for a lot of people. I am not a crook, dirt bag or whatever Kevin is calling me today. If you want to talk to me...private message me. I will give you my phone number and you can hear my story.
Edits: 04/23/15
Let me clarify a little more.
If Kevin Deal would have contacted me and politely pointed out the tubes in question were not Philips ECG and they were indeed Chinese made. I would have sent him a message back thanking him from the bottom of my heart. I would have then immediately ended the listing and nothing would have ever been questioned further.
But, Kevin did not do this...instead he sent me a condescending message telling me he was going to report me for knowingly misrepresenting my tubes. I did not know these tubes were Chinese tubes at the time and although i admit i should have known better my lack of knowledge with Chinese made and "modern" tubes led to me making a mistake. We have all made mistakes time and again and this was one that i made. How i handled this was merely a stance on how i thought two human beings should treat eachother. Now im being painted as a con and even having parts of this story made up to try to bury me.
I understand that not all of you out there are going to buy tubes from me. I admit that i dont know everything there is to know about tubes (almost every single one i sell is older than i am). I would love to learn more about the tube world from everyone in this community that has knowledge to share. You will find if you take the time to talk to me that im not a crook. Im just a guy trying to support his family and continue in his fathers footsteps.
and environs, e.g., Waterford or West Bloomfield, Michigan; who went by various names on eBay and Audiogon, including Eleuterio Alejas, 248tina40 and Trobison. He/she/it (?) had lots of positive feedback on Audiogon - the feedback system of which is a wet brain fart.
This con artist seems to have changed identities on a regular basis and has been reported in Shady Lane. Perhaps the seller in Burton is related?
Many of us, Kevin, either buy from you or another reputable tube dealer. We consistently refer people to folks we believe in. eBay needs no spanking nor endorsement, it is what it is and buyer beware. Thanks for trying to protect us but as adults, we can make our own mistakes. Ultimately, the unscrupulous drive people to you. Thanks for being there (for me and the tubes I've purchased).
"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"
Of course there's no excuse for knowingly misrepresenting something. Let me be clear that I would never try to defend such a thing, per se. But, can we really say for certain that he ever did so, or if he continues to do so, knowingly?Even with his supposed experience, is he allowed to be merely human and have gaps in his knowledge-base through no fault of his own if this were the case? He knows that others would be watching him after he got attacked last time and that he thereby lost the ability to sell the previous items in question. So, it is somewhat difficult for me to believe that he is so careless as to continually make purposeful misrepresentations, which seems to be part of the pretext for yet another attack on this individual in this thread.
It's an arcane hobby and there aren't many people who do know a whole lot about it. So, if someone's grandfather leaves him a box of tubes, he's not allowed to sell them on eBay because he might not know everything about them? Part of the responsibility does rest with the buyer to know what he's buying. Whether this is someone who is being truly dishonest, or just someone with innocent gaps in his personal knowledge-base, why just single this guy out and endlessly pile onto him when there are likely others in the same situation he is, again, whether liar or just having imperfect knowledge?
If Mr. Deal and his supporters are such partisans of justice, why don't they police the rest of the listings on eBay, Audiogon and AudioMart and call out all the other faulty listings? Mr. Deal certainly has space for this on his website where he can indulge his penchant for name-calling and where he already publicly embarrasses his own customers:
Edits: 04/23/15
Defending EBay sellers...really??? You are the one who can't stop.
I've purchase hundreds of NOS tubes from Mr. Deal. ALL perfect as advertised. 20+ years...never a single problem/mis-representation etc.
geeez.............
.
.
That's just it.We didn't see the original stating Made in Holland because he changed it and I didn't know this until Mechans pointed it out. The good thing is,he did give a money back guarantee but it would still be a PITA to send them back but many innocent ones would not know until after it was too late.
Kevin,I'm sure you see a lot of this and it get can very frustrating being as passionate as you and many of us are about the hobby.I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but stating they were made in Holland was over the line..It's too bad you didn't copy the original ad for reference and keep it in a file because that would have condensed a lot of that thread. I talked to the guy and he never told me that he put they were made in Holland but he should at least know it would say made in Holland on the bottle if they were genuine Dutch Amperex.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
did you say in an earlier post that this guy's name was Andy Bowman?
Its not the same AB as VTS, right?
I did but it's a different Andy Bowman,both from Michigan and both that sell tubes.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
He is, by proxy, being defamed. At the very least a declaration that this is not AB from VTS should accompany. The real AB at VTS is the only person I have ever bought tubes from and is beyond reproach.
I am not Andy Bowman from VTS. But my name is indeed Andy Bowman...its just sheer coincidence. This has nothing to do with Andy Bowman from VTS based out of Rockford MI.
You are correct, the person we are talking about is not the Andy Bouwman from VTS or Vintage Tube Services in Rockford, MI 49341. Notice the different spelling.We are talking about Andy Bowman from, Burton, MI
Edits: 04/25/15
Have had great experiences with VTS over the years and he has a U in his name. As noted two different people one is 30 years old and one has been in
The biz for nearly 30'years.
I didn't want to say this, but feel I must, even at the risk of being cast in a poor light. That this became a referendum about a much beloved member of this asylum. I will say a little more later. I said much the same about the Philips attribute, as you have, only to be told the Holland label was removed. I said yes the Holland attribute was removed but the Philip label replaced it.
What I think happened was that the earlier thread became a referendum about an enormously large hearted member who was very, very forgiving. The thread really lost it's relation to the substance of the matter at hand, and became a matter of who not what. I admire the guy who is the one that thread became about, as much as anybody can, in a forum setting. I felt ill at ease even thinking about disagreeing with him. But in the end I believe now and said it then, differently.
I agree with you this is no innocent child, at 30 with 14 years of experience and thousand + of sales.
I am surprised that you did bring this up again after all the negative "press" it got last time out.
Steve
Steve
If you remember correctly, many of us didn't see the original ad and were unaware that the man had changed it.If someone would have copied and pasted the original ad,that would have condensed this whole thread.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
there are many people selling on ebay now that are pickers, I think the economy has a large part to do with this (I know, I have been eviscerated by the recession...), and they look at ebay as a way to make money with almost no knowledge of what they are selling, and/or over-hyping their wares, particularly when they see what some items sell for. Not trying to fend for these scumbags as they have put a hurting on my own ebay business with their practices, but now one must be knowledgeable about what your buying or else you can easily get burned. Also, selling becomes much harder when you are offering a superior product that is being matched up to shite offered at a lower price by these same scumbags...
teach him a lesson. buy them, return them as incorrectly described, and leave a negative feedback. ebay vigilante lol
Yah but,
don't they leave feedback for you too. I suppose you could envision a scenario where you could get away with it.
Picking Ebay itself, I didn't think of that, but that is where these guys come up with the fantastic inventory I can't seem to find elsewhere. It also implies a knowledge of expensive vs cheap tubes if he flips them.
Steve
No, a seller cannot leave negative or neutral feedback for a buyer, even if the buyer defaults and does not pay. It's one of my per peeves with Ebay. It makes feedback almost useless.
"a seller cannot leave negative or neutral feedback for a buyer"
That didn't used to be the case. Is it a recent change?
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
No, actually they did that awhile ago, maybe more than 5 years now. It gives most of the power to the buyers now. This puts the burden on sellers to provide good product and good service which means sellers are at the mercy of the buyer. cheers, Dak
Yes, Ebay made that change about a year ago, as I recall.
Of course, a seller can always leave Positive FB with Negatively worded content, but it still counts as a Positive for the buyer.
IMHO, there are some cases (not many) where a buyer deserves Negative. Examples: when a buyer never pays, causing the seller to miss other possible sales, or when the buyer tries to manipulate the seller into something.
When I opened up your posting, my bias was "why don't we all leave this guy alone?"...but after reading the post, and viewing his 6550 Tung Sol post testing "strong" at 56 on the D range (7,000 GM), when 11,000 is NOS, I had a slight change of heart.
At least in the Tung Sol 6550 ad, the seller provides test information - but his editorial (tests strong) is a stretch. Also his reference to Dan Nelson being the Hickok Doc is incorrect...that's Bill Water's moniker.
Still there are so many bad sellers on ebay ranging from the ignorant to the stupid to the flat out liars.
Anyway...it may be time to move on.
About a year ago a seller advertised some vintage tubed integrated amp as being "Class A." I wrote and said that it was class AB like almost all vintage tubed gear.
His response? "Class A in tubes is different than class A in solid state." My interpretation is that he just wanted to hype his item, and was willing to lie to do it.
"I look around on Ebay and see tons of stuff like this "
eBay has become a clearinghouse for fraud and junk, and not simply because there are a lot of unscrupulous people in the world. eBay encourages this activity with their policies, and over the last ten years has finely tuned the operation to prevent honest participants from even identifying the criminals that are ripping them off. If you really want to have an impact, tell eBay what scumbags they are and stop helping them to generate profits.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
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