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In Reply to: RE: Apostrophes posted by Triode_Kingdom on March 21, 2015 at 16:11:49
http://m.grammarbook.com/other-rules/writing-numbers.aspx
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Follow Ups:
No authoritative source I know of states that an apostrophe is an acceptable mechanism for creating the plural form. The link you posted only states that "some writers" do this, and the examples given (80's and 90's) are non-standard, i.e. incorrect usage. I've also noticed that you use the apostrophe even to pluralize the standard form, such as "Maggie's." So, just to stay on track with my question, are you saying you learned this construction from the link you posted, or was it from (as you say) a "biased" English teacher?
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Me thinketh, this Wally has stumbled into the wrong forum.
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English PhD and former university composition teacher here. The apostrophe typically is omitted when pluralizing numbers, as Triode_Kingdom says--that is, unless the omission may cause confusion, which it easily could in denoting tube or component model numbers. Furthermore, notable writer handbooks (Simon & Schuster, e.g.) allow the apostrophe, tout court, if the writer prefers, as Bigjimsguitars says, as long as the choice is consistent throughout the text. So there you have it: both are right!
"unless the omission may cause confusion, which it easily could in denoting tube or component model numbers"
Such allowance does not justify the use of an apostrophe in virtually every plural on the page. How odd that during my years as a technical writing manger, such use was strongly discouraged, yet the audience was never - so far as we know - confused. Perhaps the average reader now requires more assistance. No matter, the OP has answered my question to the best of his ability. It's time to move on. :)
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Triode, why so snarky and condescending? Who made you the almighty...
Jim
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You shouldn't take anything said here as a personal attack. It wasn't intended that way. FWIW, I've had this discussion with people on both sides, and I can tell you that many people in my camp (mostly tech writers and engineers) have described this issue using terms I wouldn't even consider posting here. It really was my intent to make this inquiry as inoffensive as possible. Thanks for your input!
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I didn't take it personal. It is clear that you have a deep rooted opinion of how the English language should be used. One problem, technical writing and the real world are two completely different beasts. To give an example of how your way would ultimately be confusing:
300B, 12AX7A, 6V6GTA, and so on.
In the end, conveying a thought is the true goal.
Jim
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"300B, 12AX7A, 6V6GTA, and so on. "
So, if someone tells you they just bought two 300Bs, four 12AX7s and four 6V6GTAs, you would be confused? What if I said that a poker player's hand contains 3s and 5s? One of the best English language references I've seen over the last 30-odd years uses that specific example to explain where the apostrophe is not warranted. OTOH, I remember seeing something you wrote in which the term "Maggies" (speakers, plural) was written "Maggie's." It was that particular non-standard usage that prompted me to ask the question.
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Nt
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I should have referred this to my nephew, Vice President/Editor of the Motherboard. Wait, we have clarification of the Flexible Rule. Can we move on back to the discussion of Vacuum Tubes and Audio?
Jim
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That's interesting.
I sometimes place an apostrophe after the tube number as I don't what someone to think I'm talking about a 300bs (as a model number) instead of numerous 300b's.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
now do you want to say what's up with the apostrophe after your moniker?
Cheers
K
A lower-case "e" with an acute accent , as in Tré.
No?
only I'm too lazy to learn how to type an acute accent.OK, I looked it up. alt-0233 é. To much trouble.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 03/24/15 03/24/15
I always pronounced it that way "in my head"
K
The key is consistency. Many "English" teachers impart their preferences and bias upon their students.
Jim
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Jim
I do that same thing because it doesn't make the numbers look run together with the letters.
As for mixing the tubes,I have done that and you can do it but the biggest difference is probably going to be in the preamp and phase-splitter.I would mix those tubes up.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Engineers are concerned with how things work, so it isn't surprising that one could prefer 300b's to 300bs. It works better. It's easier to read.
Just like co-operative is easier to read than cooperative. And co-ed is easier to read than coed.
"Engineers are concerned with how things work"
I've met plenty of engineers in the fields of both hardware and software who dislike this misuse of the English language. It often slows down reading, because the apostrophe implies a possessive where there is none. Anyway, like I said, I didn't want to hijack the thread. There may not be a single answer to this.
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I also find the misuse of language puzzling, especially "to" or "too". The apparent misunderstanding about when to use one or the other is produced by even the finest minds on the forum. However, I just read it, and assume that proofreading is not always done, or that some quite intelligent folks, in some areas, are just not great at grammar.
My mother has a MA in English from Stanford. I grew up with an enforcement or else policy. She worked for a scientific journal named Annual Reviews.
There, they digested all the cutting edge research in various fields, and made "annual reviews" for the other scientists in any given field. Her job was a proofreader. I heard for years at the diner table about how numerous gifted PHD researchers couldn't spell or punctuate to save their lives. She had to be careful as to not change the intended meaning when she corrected basic spelling and grammar, which often necessitated direct discussions with the "authors", who while brilliant at their field, would fail a high school English exam......
In conclusion, I don't find it appropriate to "bust" this issue here, regardless of the seemingly unnecessary nature of it.
...I frequently post from a smartphone. Combine the crappy ergonomics with an atrocious and obstinate spell check function and I sometimes just give up and post what I know are misused words and incorrect punctuation. For this reason, I tend to overlook the grammar and punctuation stuff. And yeah, I know I can disable the spell checker but it works correctly just often enough that I don't.
I hear you on the spell check but I also have voice text on my I-phone and you can speak into it and enunciate very clearly and there is still no telling how the words come out much of the time.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
nt
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Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player NOS E288CC's
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Michael:
I agree that the difference in tone is more directly related to the driver (phase splitter) and preamp tubes. Unfortunately, there are no direct replacements for the Russian 6N1P that I'm aware of. I've tried several different 6N1P's with the mid 60's Novo's providing the best aural soundstage and clarity. They are just a hint midrange forward, which I like. The rockets I've tried (70's & 80's) are decent, but lacking in the size of the soundstage.
That said, the 6N1P pairs well with the clear top RCA 6FQ7's that are in my passive preamp. Don't get me wrong, I love how my system sounds, but love tubes from the golden era...I'm still a bit of a tube snob, shame on me.
Jim
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Ah I remember reading that under your old moniker Medium Jim how that took the 6N1P tubes when you first got the amp on your Maggies.I do like that tube a lot but I wonder if there is a sub that will work in your amp?
You may very well like the effects of mixing output tubes..I like the way it performed when I did it in the Mc240.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
The ARC drives the my Maggie's perfectly. I have no problem with non-tube amplification for the subs and I'm liking my B&W's as they integrate nicely. I have them crossed at 50hz which allows the Maggie's to do what they do best. I've been very lucky with my system as far as synergy goes.
Jim
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Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player NOS E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to 2.5R's
You are using the B&w sub with the Maggies?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Yes, low/high passed.
Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player NOS E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to 2.5R's
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