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On Sundays I like to watch CBS Sunday Morning with Laura my sweetie and browse the net. Sometimes I look at Ebay tube auctions. I see some "Westinghouse Holland" EL34's that are obvious Chinese. Not just Chinese, but the crappy ones they made in the 80's.
So I contact the seller, who is in the tube business, and drops names like Daniel Nelson who calibrated his TV-7 tube tester etc etc. He even knows what XF2 means on a Mullard. Really makes himself out to know his business. I figure he will simply say "thanks!" and correct the auction.
Nope. And he sends me a note basically telling me to screw off. Who am I trying to tell him what to do. He takes off the reference to Holland and now just says they are Philips ECG. He clearly knows what he's doing. I told him every single identifier for his tubes. Know what he did next? He complained to Ebay that I contacted him!
You guys know what's going on and won't get bit by this guy with Ebay ID thearmyofgoodmusic But your tube brothers out there DON"T know. And they will put these overpriced pieces of crap in an amp with no protection. It will break and they'll say "I knew tubes were a hassle".
It's this kind of stuff that hurts the tube amp industry I love so much.
He has a few of these "Philips" EL34's listed. I might suggest somebody else complains to him, and to Ebay.
Follow Ups:
The auction DID say Holland. After I sent him that first note he should have checked and he would have seen he was wrong. Instead he took out Holland and left the impression they were Philips ECG, which is silly as Sylvania's and Philips ECG are fat bottles.I told him how to ID it.
Look at all his feedback and experience. If I put up a tube for sale and said it was made somewhere, I would damn sure make it certain what I was saying.
Was I hard on him in my message sent through Ebay? Yes. Because he holds himself as an expert and customers rely on that.
It's not the only Ebay posting where people get screwed. They all plea ignorance. Or they may change the listing with "not sure of which factory" when they very well know. They are in the business. There are many sellers on Ebay selling tubes as new when they are not, putting measurements that customers don't understand but show the tubes are near the end of life, and flat out lying, willfully, about what they sell. The buyer rarely knows when it happens.
I sent him a note telling him if he didn't do something about it I would post it here and I did.
Edits: 04/12/15 04/12/15
I am thearmyofgoodmusic on ebay. My name is Andy Bowman. Kevin Deal has now wrote on this forum that i origianlly wrote thay these tubes in question were made Holland. This is a total 100% lie. I thought these were Philips ECG and never once said they were made in Holland then changed the listing after he told me. I posted word for word every single piece of the conversation i had with Kevin. He never said anything about hholland because it never happened. I labeled them thinking they were philips ecg because i have another tube that looks exactly the same that was labeled philips ecg (which turns out is also a fake chinese tube) being that i rarely deal in chinese tubes...i didnt know. Honest mistake. The whole point of all of this is i didnt want to be attacked or threatened for an honest mistake. Someone spent millions of dollars to fake tubes...its really not that crazy they Could fool some of us once and a while.
For those you of you that never read my story and how this all went down. Please read the follow which is word for word every message Kevin and I have had with eachother in regards to these tubes. Kevin doesnt like to tell the whole story it appears or he likes to add things to it (like i said these were Holland made tubes).
the following i posted on Audio Asylum:
Hey Kevin.....you forgot to tell the rest of the story.
So guys, this is my listing. I am the "Crook" the bandit that is proud to be ripping people off on ebay....but wait maybe...just maybe there is a little more here than what meets the eye.
Let me explain these tubes....I tried for hours...literally hours to identify the maker of these tubes. I compared them to every single EL34 i own and every single picture i could find of any EL34 on google images. I couldnt once find a single one that matched how they were constructed. Ive been selling tubes for 14 years. I know a lot about them but admittedly i dont know everything. The only tube i found that looked anything like it was labeled "philips ecg". Being that this was my only evidence i made the assumption (which may have been wrong) that these were Philips ECG.
A little while after listing them on ebay i got a nice message from Kevin Deal...a person i dont know.
You will see in this convo that Kevin right from the very first message he sends me accuses me of being a thief and assumes that i am knowingly trying to rip people off. Instead of saying something like "hello, it is my belief that these are chinese tubes and here is how i know this, could you please make changes to your listings so you dont misrepresent these".
One more time...i dont know everything about tubes...i learn everyday just as each one of you do. I still after all this...cannot find a picture of a chinese tube that looks like the tubes i have. So now i have to trust a guy that calls me a crook for tube advice?
Here is our conversation....you tell me who was being harassed in this convo and who was proud?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
upscaleaudio: <-----(Kevin Deal)
I assume you already know these are Chinese. Your auctions and your Ebay ID will be going up on a couple websites in the "Fake Ebay Auctions" page if you don't stop this and change the auction to what they are. I'll keep an eye on you.
(Me) :
What the....first off who are you and how do you know these are made in China. There are no markings that indicate this and the thick getter type and structure of the tube matches identical to the Philips ECG 6ca7s that i own. Im not sure i like this threat without atleast explaining yourself and how you know this to be a true statement..i certainly understand that there are a lot of things that are up for debate when it comes to tubes but just blatantly telling me you are going to slander my name without further background seems far off base.
upscaleaudio:
For a guy that sells tubes, you don't know your business. Philips ECG never made a 6CA7. Before they changed names they were Sylvania, and Sylvania certainly did make a 6CA7, but it was a fat bottle.
So now we are left with Philips made. Look at every EL34 auction, and NONE of them look like yours. All Holland EL34's had brown bases.All real Philips will have a hole in the center pin. It's not even close.
As to your tubes, all you have to do is look at the getter ring which is a washer and the plates. It's a Shuguang. As to who I am, I sell millions of dollars in tubes and tube gear each year and have been in many magazines and articles about tubes. I have the largest inventory of NOS tubes in America. Look up Kevin Deal
Want real Mullard 12AX7's in original military box? We stock over 3,000. Want real Telefunken E88CC? Over 4,000. Vintage NOS 12AU7's from Europe? Over 10,000. I can assure you I speak the truth. I also co-created the hottest brand of tube gear on the market. PrimaLuna. I've been doing this for 38 years.
On Sunday I occasionally look for stuff like this and we put them up in a couple forums. If you have sold these, you ripped people off. Those tubes are worth at best $20 each. In fact they are worthless because later Shuguang are much much better. Those are crap. I have a bunch here and I wouldn't even give them away as I would be doing someone potential harm.
(Me):
Why couldnt you just have put that information in your first message to me? You know if you are the worlds best tube guy ever that it is possible that not everyone knows everything that an esteemed gentleman as yourself knows. Im not a crook trying to rip people off but perhaps ive been ripped off myself.
upscaleaudio:
Don't give me shit. I'm just telling you what's up. A simple thanks might be better.
(Me:
You get what you give....
go ahead and report me to whatever site or whatever you run. Im not gonna be bullied or trolled on the internet. You may very well know your stuff but , your tactics and manners arent gonna get you anywhere with me. Enjoy your life policing ebay...im sure they will find this conversation interesting.
: upscaleaudio
Sure...and I'll put your responses up too. On tube forums and on my website front page too
This is simply put... my defense. In my best Nixon voice...i am not a crook. I am a guy trying to feed his family that once and while might need advice or help from people who may no more than i do. But you dont offer advice or help in that manner.
Can anyone show me where he said anything about me labeling them as Holland? He aknowledges in his second message i labeled them as Philips ECG (which was wrong...but i didnt know at the time).
Kevin is now lying saying i said these were Holland made to make himself look better and me look like a liar. The truth is that he is lying about the conversations we have had. (Everyword i have EVER said and he has EVER said to me can be seen above)
Im not gonna just stand by while someone trys to slander me with blatant lies.
claims using Don Nelson's cal-ed TV7 tested, also has a Sencore Hybrider (which I have no idea what it is), also claims they are "digitally matched", I have hard time to believe it is an honest mistake, of course we are all human.
Edits: 03/20/15
Walter
I actually talked to the guy today and his name is Andy and he is real nice and he does landscaping and sells tubes on the side..He is 30yo and has been selling tubes since he was 14 when his dad found a box of 100 brand new 12AU7 RCA clear tops new in box at a garage sale for like 5 dollars and he sold them on line..The tubes he sells are all vintage and he is still learning after all these years but he honestly didn't realize because he took very good pictures so he wasn't trying to hide anything.
Now naturally if he was this super know it all tube dealer that some here think,he would know that selling those tubes could potentially damage his reputation..Would he really want to do that with the excellent feedback he has? I seriously doubt it..The guy only sells on ebay from what I gather and we surely would have heard something if this is a practice he regularly engages in.I can sympathize with him because I went thru a similar situation six years ago..It didn't snowball but life is a learning experience.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/20/15
Micky,
You are one good man with good heart. Thank you for it clear for everyone.
Have a nice weekend.
Wal
You're a good neighborly guy :)
Thanks Jay
Would you believe his real name is Andy Bowman,the same as the other tube guy in West Mich. Andy Bowman has a stellar reputation for selling some of the best tubes on the planet and this young Andy has actually heard of him.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Mike,
Glad you took the ball and ran with it.
You are definitely one of the more sensible (and patient) "active" members on this forum.
Id like tho think so. Everyone deserves a chance and everyone makes mistakes.It's no reason to ridicule and threaten them over what some saw as a deliberate deception..I looked at all his auctions and they are all vintage NOS/NIB tubes and used vintage tubes..That's the only tubes that I saw that were Chinese but he writes the info off the tubes including the codes and puts them in all the auctions..His prices are very fair but I don't think he knows how to write up a lot of these tubes or what they are and I think he beats himself a lot of times..I told him I would help him out tho.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Pretty good, as I recall.
I don't know Hutton and I didn't know this Andy guy until Kevin introduced him so obviously these people can't be that well known and popular to know so much.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/20/15 03/20/15
I suspect Kevin reacted the way he did based on how those tubes were so obviously of Chinese manufacture. You would think anyone, with any background in tubes, would know what exactly those tubes were. That immediately screams "shyster".
I will take the seller at his word that he was not aware, based on his response here and good Ebay feedback. However, it gets old seeing these same rip-off auctions on that website and I can see where Kevin is coming from.
will take the seller at his word that he was not aware, based on his response here and good Ebay feedback. However, it gets old seeing these same rip-off auctions on that website and I can see where Kevin is coming from.I can understand that wholeheartedly because I see that a lot with Mac and Marantz gear..Now if that guy put those tubes up again or something similar,I would have invoked Kevin's reaction as well because that would indicate a true schmuck.
Nevertheless we have to judge every case on its own merits.This is one of those cases that should have been taken into consideration.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/19/15
This thread is interesting.
Peoples' very different responses to the same OP/subject is amazing.
Two polar opposite camps that appear to have not read the same thread, but did.
Mr Deal's attempt to warn people, while I applaud his desire to help people, was rude and uncalled for.
I wonder why Mr Deal has not backed up his claims or apologized. To make a public accusation like that and not participate, especially after Mr Lotsofnoise responded, is curious.
I suspect he doesn't hang out here to notice the result of his post.
Just stopped in to stir the pot...
.
Freak out...Far out...In out....
You are probably right. A hit and run.
People who actually read the threads will know and remember what happened.
Too much of this crap lately.
I wonder if the other sites Mr Deal threatened to post on figured it out?
.
NT
I can see the OP's point of view, but just adding my 2 cents, it's really not a good idea to race to conclusions, be the judge and jury all at once. I would not go so far as to say this is an attack, but it is on the aggressive side. I might start with asking some questions and just being frank and professional about how you are concerned about these kinds of labeling and misunderstandings.
If the goal, is in fact, to have these tubes properly described then that will best occur if everyone cooperates and you can get the other party to see your point of view. This will not happen if you start out the dialog in the manner that was described.
Samra says the seller has over 2500 good feed backs. It stands to reason that the person can be reasoned with. We cannot rule out the possibility that he honestly didn't know. I understand the passion the OP has for the tube enthusiasts and wants to protect it. The OP had the deeper knowledge of the tube so why not try imparting that knowledge to the seller, in a neutral fashion. See where that gets you first before shooting from the hip..
Needless to say, these are all "First World problems" we should treat them as such..
If what is claimed is true, then it is a public service.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Doug
The guy didn't object to removing the tubes..He was upset in the condescending manner in which he was approached and you would be as well.
You don't approach people like this the first time.
upscaleaudio: <-----(Kevin Deal)I assume you already know these are Chinese. Your auctions and your Ebay ID will be going up on a couple websites in the "Fake Ebay Auctions" page if you don't stop this and change the auction to what they are. I'll keep an eye on you.
Doug,would you like someone to respond to you like that in the first encounter? I can pretty much deem you wouldn't and neither would most people.
How about,I don't know if you know this or not but these are Chinese made tubes and are not actually Philips so you should really change your ad to state it as such. Then you can tell him whom you are and explain yourself in a bit of detail..
Look at the tubes the guy sells and you can see why he probably didn't know and that's why he made a mistake..He gives a money back guarantee and he does have excellent feedback so it's easy to assume that he knew but he obviously didn't.I find shisters on Ebay all the time and I approach them but I always do it diplomatically without being insulting and hurtful because many just don't know however,when I find someone listing an Mc275 in mint condition for a 1000 dollars and they live in England and will ship it free,I go right for jugular as that is an obvious fraud.
I know Kevin knows his business when it comes to tubes and I understand his frustration as there are a lot of low lifes that would say anything to make a sale but you still need to use diplomacy sometimes.
This guy has great feedback and Kevin no doubt thought this guy knows every avenue of selling tubes but he obviously doesn't. 7 years ago I had these 6L6gc tubes that said made in W. Germany on them and I thought that's where they were made until someone alerted me to the fact that they were made in Eastern Europe in spite of what the bottle says..He was very kind in the way he approached me and I pulled the auction and I was grateful he helped me out..That is the way I approach Ebay sellers and I almost always get appreciated response and they almost always do the right thing.
Try kindness first and give people a chance and if that doesn't work,then you've every right to go out there and do what you have to do.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/19/15 03/19/15 03/19/15 03/19/15 03/20/15
I've read this entire post and the other post listed.
I believe that diplomacy and decorum should be practiced at first, especially by someone well respected as Mr. Deal or anyone else for that matter.
Once, if nothing has been done to rectify the situation then stronger measures must be utilized. But even at that, firm language can be used in a professional, diplomatic fashion. It only strengthens the reputation of the person exposing the "fraud"
Conversely, the seller, if unsure of the origin of the merchandise then I think the seller is obligated to disclose that information. This in turn would strengthen the reputation of the seller. And if what I have read here is true about the ad still being listed and not corrected then shame on the seller and they should be exposed, but agin in a professional, respectful manner.
Best,
Dave
Dave
His ad was removed..The ending of the auction ad is the only thing showing up which it always does in that case..The tubes are no longer for sale.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
As I posted on March 17, I am with Michael on this one. A stranger from nowhere to the seller is threating the seller. The approach was mishandled from a management standpoint.
Can't see any reason to assume that Deal was immediately insulting or condescending when he first contacted the seller. What Deal says is that he tried to hip the guy and was strongly rebuffed.
If the seller didn't object to removing the tubes how come he's still listing them as Philips?
"Can't see any reason to assume that Deal was immediately insulting or condescending when he first contacted the seller."
Follows is what the ebay seller claims was his first contact from Kevin Deal and I see nothing posted here by Deal denying it.
"I assume you already know these are Chinese. Your auctions and your Ebay ID will be going up on a couple websites in the "Fake Ebay Auctions" page if you don't stop this and change the auction to what they are. I'll keep an eye on you."
Nope, nothing there that's "insulting or condescending" or would give on pause IF and only IF the seller was not aware of the provenience of the tubes.
Agreed?
This was the first email to the guy from Kevin and I didn't see him deny it so you tell me.
I assume you already know these are Chinese. Your auctions and your Ebay ID will be going up on a couple websites in the "Fake Ebay Auctions" page if you don't stop this and change the auction to what they are. I'll keep an eye on you.
That sounds like a threat to someone you never had any dialogue with..At least express civil dialogue and give the guy a chance and if he doesn't rectify it,you have every right to respond anyway you see fit..
Where is he still listing the tubes as Philips? I don't see it.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
I am thearmyofgoodmusic on ebay. My name is Andy Bowman. Kevin Deal has now wrote on this forum that i origianlly wrote thay these tubes in question were made Holland. This is a total 100% lie. I thought these were Philips ECG and never once said they were made in Holland then changed the listing after he told me. I posted word for word every single piece of the conversation i had with Kevin. He never said anything about hholland because it never happened. I labeled them thinking they were philips ecg because i have another tube that looks exactly the same that was labeled philips ecg (which turns out is also a fake chinese tube) being that i rarely deal in chinese tubes...i didnt know. Honest mistake. The whole point of all of this is i didnt want to be attacked or threatened for an honest mistake. Someone spent millions of dollars to fake tubes...its really not that crazy they Could fool some of us once and a while.
Andy Bowman
The seller took off the Holland designation and instead listed them as being Philips ECG. Look at the ended auction.
He did this after he was informed of the Chinese origin of the tubes but evidently still intent on selling them as Philips. If you reread Kevin's post he also says the seller removed Holland but put Philips ECG in its place.
Did you ask him why he thought these were Holland tubes initially?
Steve
I wish we could find the original ad.I went on this rant for naught if he actually did that because there is no way I would believe he would believe those were Holland built tubes.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Mike, regardless of whether he knew it or not, I really don't think it was necessary for Mr. Deal to address him in the way he did...
Edits: 03/21/15
I agree with you Peter..That was very uncalled for..There was no reason for that and I still maintain that..I hope he didn't put Holland on those tubes tho because that sort of breaks my faith being I was so adamant in defending him.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
X200
kc
Steve
Do you have a link to it? It said Philips ECG which we know is not Dutch Amperex. I don't see the word Holland anywhere.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/21/15
No he took off the Holland designation as I said 2 times, but inserted Philips ECG, which we agree is there. That is not the correct designation for a Chinese tube. Were Philips ECG tubes made in China? If so I am wrong and the and the tube is correctly labeled.
Steve
and allow maro to answer this one I'd very much appreciate it.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Lotsofnoise is the one you need to respond and he already has below..The Maro individual may be a customer of his but I can't say for sure. AAMOF,he has responded several times and it looks like he joined up just to have his say..
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/19/15 03/19/15
without any other folks commenting, perhaps you should email him through Asylum email.
Otherwise, as this is a public forum, we all have the right to comment.
Perhaps the word-choice, i.e., "Dirtbag," "crook," etc., might make a difference to whether it is a public service vs. becoming a lynching.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I don't think anyone questions taking action - it is solely the manner in which the action was taken.
If you want to get into "good and evil", how many times have people with "special knowledge" (e.g., tube pros) bought tubes from old techs on fixed income (or their surviving spouse) for pennies on the dollar because they can take advantage of the situation?
Isn't there some saying about casting stones when you live in a glass house?
Do you have any knowledge of Kevin Deal screwing "old techs on fixed income" by buying tubes for pennies on the dollar? Any knowledge of any other well known tube dealers doing that? If so, who?
You may not like the word choice of Deal's post, but it seems to me he posted to warn about the potential for *us* getting screwed. Obviously he stands to lose if perception of tube dealers is negatively affected due to unscrupulous misrepresentations such as the example he displayed. But *we* lose if we buy bogus tubes from cheats - or sellers who may be misrepresenting what they're selling just due to ignorance, and as a tube buyer I'm happy to have them exposed.
It would have been just as easy and just as effective to post an alert to the problem without increasing the likelihood of inciting a mob by the manner of presentation.And, yes, it is wrong for one person to be singled-out and piled onto in this manner while others, named or unnamed, proven or unproven, have their own sins to ponder - and this doesn't really require proof, just innate knowledge of human nature and tendencies. Who really thinks the subject of this lynching is the only seller we might need to be concerned about, proven or not?
As far as dealer reputation, the O.P. is apparently in a pretty doggone strong and safe position to be able to publicly embarrass others and actually gain a following for doing it! He also seems to enjoy doing it right on his website - is this kind of thing really called-for? Does anyone have a right to be not as smart, or not as informed, or not as rich and powerful as some others are, without being bullied?
Edits: 03/19/15 03/19/15
Peter
He didn't gain a following for that..He gained a cheering section for some that know him..I think since both sides of the coin were pointed out,I think a few may have changed their tune a bit.We have all over reacted at one time or another and I definitely think this is one of those cases..This doesn't mean we shouldn't point wrong doing,on the contrary..We do need to be tactful tho because it reflects on us as individuals and how others see us as well.Showing a lack of reverence for the other person is never a good thing.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/19/15
Fair enough, Mike, thank you for your comments.
I have tried to be real, rational and respectful in my discussion, which I hope came through as such.
Peter
I agree and I hope my comments have been perceived in that regard as well.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Yessiree, as usual!
I'm surprised that page isn't ten times longer.
Just last week, I had to explain to a "profesional" that tubes needed to be pushed into the sockets all the way to work properly, after receiving a curt e-mail about "bad socket quality".
There was a woman last year who wouldn't stop calling me about a circuit she drew up that wouldn't possibly work (she hadn't built it). Sometimes she would call 5-10 times per day.
I think the Manley website has some better emails than Kevin.
I do not deny that some individuals can be problematic, and I can sympathize with anyone having to deal with a problematic person. In such cases, appropriate boundaries can nevertheless be set without holding them up for public ridicule - without putting them in a corner with a dunce cap on their heads for everyone to see. It just seems over-the-top to me that a business actually publicly embarrasses their customers.
snip: It just seems over-the-top to me that a business actually publicly embarrasses their customers.
Absolutely.
Apparently, that's some people's new approach to gaining customers and respect.
I doubt it works very well.
"I can't compete with the dead". (Buck W. 2010)
snip: It just seems over-the-top to me that a business actually publicly embarrasses their customers.
Yes,to me that would make me reluctant to deal with that business for fear of the fact they may not like you and then publicly soil your reputation.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
It appears to me that Kevin came on a little strong with his comments & could have handled the situation with a lot more class.
Doug
Indeed.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Deal didn't get "in a pretty doggone strong and safe position" or gain a "following" by embarrassing others, he got there by being a reputable dealer and knowledgeable tube seller.His post was not only a warning but also an effort to "incite" complaints to Ebay so that buyers would not get misrepresented tubes. Hardly inciting a "mob".
"Who really thinks the subject of this lynching is the only seller we might need to be concerned about, proven or not?"
So by this logic if you know of one ripoff artist you should keep it to yourself until you know *all* ripoff artists? Jeez.
Bullied? As explained in the OP Kevin Deal attempted to educate the seller but was rebuffed and blown off, and the seller is still misrepresenting what he's selling.
Edits: 03/19/15
Deal didn't get "in a pretty doggone strong and safe position" or gain a "following" by embarrassing others, he got there by being a reputable dealer and knowledgeable tube seller.
That's really not the point, is it? We're not talking about how he got into his position. The point is how he uses his powerful position in a needlessly condescending and embarrassing manner.
His post was not only a warning but also an effort to "incite" complaints to Ebay so that buyers would not get misrepresented tubes. Hardly inciting a "mob".
Don't get me wrong, as I am not by any means trying to defend faulty sales listings. And, fair enough, if you don't care for the word "mob," I'll give you that. But, there's no getting away from the inordinate "pile-up" that resulted upon the one individual. How would you like it if a pile-up were on you after a caustic double-post, even if you were responsible for a mistake? The community could have been just as well informed, and ebay could have been informed, in a way that was not so caustic. As I recall, when you report potential fraud to ebay, as I have done in another matter, there is no "dirtbag" option you can click on.
"Who really thinks the subject of this lynching is the only seller we might need to be concerned about, proven or not?"
So by this logic if you know of one ripoff artist you should keep it to yourself until you know *all* ripoff artists? Jeez.
No, of course you don't have to keep it to yourself, and nothing I wrote suggested it should be kept to oneself until all "rip-offs" are known. I was pointing out a way to keep things in perspective, even if you can't prove other misconduct, which we know is surely out there somewhere. It gets back to the potential for unfairness when singling-out only one person while also getting back to the point of the MANNER in which things are done, which is a point that has been made abundantly clear.
Bullied? As explained in the OP Kevin Deal attempted to educate the seller but was rebuffed and blown off, and the seller is still misrepresenting what he's selling.
Sorry, but I don't think of calling someone a "dirtbag" as a good educational tool for anyone concerned. Yes, bullying - did you look at the link in my last post? I'll include it here again for your convenience.
Hope you don't get shafted on a hifi purchase, but after this it'll be tough to sympathize if you do.
Fair enough, I will not look to you for sympathy - you've got a "deal" on that one ;-)
nt
Nobody is denying Kevin's stellar reputation but you still have to be somewhat understanding with people..This seller is not unreasonable but I can almost bet Rick that if someone responded to you in a threatening way the first time,you wouldn't like it.
They assign teachers their own parking spot at the school where I teach and someone parked in my spot one day that was visiting the campus.I could have left a nasty note and said hey,you obviously should realize this is faculty assigned parking and you parked in my spot and if you don't move your car within the next hour,I'm going to have it towed.I did leave a nice note and even tho I was inconvenienced a bit,I didn't hoot and holler about it because the guy just didn't know as the assigned parking sign was hard to see being at the opposite end of the row and I knew this..
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Edits: 03/19/15
nt
I figured you hadn't seen it.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
It's the vulnerable who are easy to pile onto, while the big fish always get away - with much worse things.
I think the point has been made. There is nothing righteous about a lynch mob.
I agree......
Buy them, then refuse to pay. That will get eBay's attention.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Kevin:
As I read your post I'm listening to music on David Swartz's old AH! Tjoeb that you originally sold to him. I've done some much needed sound dampening of the chassis and the old bird is still singing a sweet song.
Karma will take care of the bogus tube expert.
Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Troeb Tube CD player
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to 2.5R's
Dirtbag are very kind words dont you men *cumbag?
Bill
Hey Kevin, I just emailed him as well. No response yet. Just thought I'd bagger him a bit.
PaulB
Fraud report posted to eBay.
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