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It doesn't seem like I'm ever getting a Citation ll amp EVER!!!! Seems they are going for around $3k and the TOP end of my budget is around $1.5k
However I was looking at the ST-70 new kits over at Bob Latino's site. Or even on very different, the integrated Cronus Magnus with KT120's.
So why would I need a preamp for a ST-70? Providing I have a passive control. and what other vintage amps should I be looking for? In the below $1500 range.
charles
Follow Ups:
I will go against the grain here. I have a mint example of a McShane Level II upgraded Citation II. I have mint updated Marantz Model 8b,5s,2s.
I have had a Citation I- sold it, still have a Marantz 7 and a pair of Model I Consolettes.
We are very lucky to have Jim McShane who has developed the process and support to maintain, upgrade and refurbish the Citation line up.
I think that the Marantz line up , 8b being the sweet spot, runs circles around the Citation II in tonality, harmonics and naturalness. You have to consider speaker interface, room power considerations, as you would always... the Marantz is superior to me. Technically, the Marantz is irrefutably better constructed than the Citation ( better than Mac as well I would argue). Design wise , Citation is spec'd to burn up out of the box with output tube bias off the charts even in 1962-crazy 100ma bias current!- who does this let alone a engineer with the pedigree of Hegeman? ( McShane rightfully addresses this for today's tubes- but would you really run them this hard even if you could buy original Tungsols by the crate?)
The 12by7a never to be used again -wonder why- was it an exercise in "specmanship" not quality of tone?. Look at the conservative design and layout of the Marantz line up and ask who has left the most enduring legacy- Marantz with Sid Smith or Hegeman?
Both brilliant but think about it from a reliability , performance and cost perspective. I would argue the transformers for the 8b and their configuration and compensation networks are equal to or rival the Citation line.
At the end of the day you must "listen" to good examples of both. I get the lure of the Citation, beefy, powerful ... in the end it did not do it for me.
All I'm saying is don't let others influence you if you have not heard the differences. The investment in either will be good- they are not making any more.
has been Heath W-6. Monoblocks, they kick ass, and IMHO run over all the great classics. Trouble is they were kits and assembly quality is greatly variable depending on builder. Doesn't help that Heath changed parts purveyors occassionally.
Huge transformers , great sound. A pair runs about $1800
I can recommend the VTA products highly. I am currently running VTA Mk IIIs with 6SN7 drivers, very nice sounding amps in pp. All new construction, you can build yourself if you want, also easy to mod/upgrade. Their ST 70/120 options also have many adherents.
K.
PS: Should you desire to add a preamp, Roy's products are no slouch(es) either. (no affiliation, commercial, familial or otherwise, etc...)
I'm going to second the recommendation for a Latino ST-70 plus a VTA preamp. I've had the VTA ST-70 and a VTA SP-10 preamp for about a year, and I haven't thought of upgrading once in that time. I compare this to every other system I've ever had where I got tired of it four months after buying it.
Of course, if you can get an old Marantz...yeah, that might be a good thing too. :)
"Do you need those light bulbs on your stereo?" - my niece, looking at a Dynaco ST-70
Doug's point is the Latino amps do not require a rebuild- the amps are new. The amps are also very well designed. My hat is off to Bob Latino for providing a great product.
I mod some preamp/driver boards for better sound. I change the coupling caps, mod the CCS for higher current placing the tubes in a more linear area of the plate curves and roll tubes. Some that have many amps say the mods brings the Latino amps from good to competing well against other upgraded PP amplifiers.
The Marantz 8B is in another league and can cost twice as much plus require a rebuild for best reliability. Money wise the audio hobby can be cruel!
I've already gone through having the original MKII's with KT88 - and the works. Nice amps but I couldn't stand the heat they generated. The music was great but the dehydration was hard.
Looking for the smallish tubes now.
Just wondering, because I did that and have not gotten around to the rebuild, and now my wife is pointing out the space it is taking up.....
I prefer the Marantz 8B to upgraded Citation II. However, the Citation II is a very neutral sounding amp & has serious power- a great amp, no doubt.
I taken the Latino ST-120 to new heights per others. Not in the 8B territory, but very good. I use the 12AU7 board with 12BH7 and change the CCS to 20ma that gets the 12BH7 in the better part of the plate curves.
With careful shopping I seen 8Bs go for $1800. You will never regret owning a 8B. Rebuilding is inexpensive too.
Heck, I'm MORE than happy with my stuff now. So I'll wait a few years until I find one. Maybe for retirement??
Thanks
charles
You cannot go wrong with the 8B. See my recent post in vintage.
I'm in a really good "audio place" right now. And I really can not see changing things anyway. But being an old Marantz fan, I ALWAYS wanted one of their tubed pieces.
So it sounds good to me!
Thanks
Charles
airtime:
I have a Rogue Sphinx integrated amp which has a tube preamp but solid state amp. It is driving a pair of Nola Boxers and the sound is very good. However, I am also looking at the Rogue Cronus Magnum… I have a couple of other tube integrated amps that I am working with as I learn about tubes - Antique Sound Labs AQ 1005 DT and an Audio Space Galaxy 34, so it will be quite a while before I get to the next level. Eventually I expect I'll be using separates but the integrated amps are good for where I am now. I have been very happy with the Sphinx however so I thought I'd leave you a note…Good luck with your search.
Mike
Edits: 11/03/14 11/03/14
A Latino vta-70 is a very good amp. If you order with the optional stepped
attenuator you can plug your source into the vta without needing any preamp.
Charles;
The deuce has been going for around $1500 in good working order on Ebay.
That seems to be the going rate for the past 6 months that I have been watching.
I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes, until the main course.......Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
But those amps are living on borrowed time. The youngest Cit II amp in the world will be 50 years old in a few months. Unless they are properly redone - which includes pretty much all the internal parts - it's just a matter of time before they fail. I would consider those amps to be rebuildable cores, not long term music makers.
The Cit V was a bit kinder to its internals, and usually does not need a total rebuild. I second Eli's suggestion - a Cit V is a terrific piece and one of the best amps ever.
There is a nice pair of Quicksilver Mid Mono amps listed here for $1200. I had them a few years ago and they are outstanding. You should be able to use a passive with them. BTW,there is also a pair on Audiogon listed.
Look for the "little brother" of the H/K Cit. 2, the H/K Cit. 5.
If you want to use long interconnect cables between the control center and the power amp, an active setup is in order, even if gain is not needed.
Another situation where active line level circuitry is appropriate is when the I/P impedance of the power amp is low.
The pentode I/P in the H/K Cit. tube amps allows for a high I/P impedance, without worries of adverse Miller capacitance interaction. As long as the cabling between a passive control center and Cit. 2 or Cit. 5 is short and low capacitance, you will be fine with a 50 KOhm passive setup. Few signal sources will be loaded down by 50 KOhms. OTOH, a 10 KOhm passive setup, while fine with commercial CDPs, can be quite problematic with some phono preamps.
Eli D.
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