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Please clarify to my understanding in a nutshell the 2a3 is noted for a better midrange than the 300b, while the 300b has better bass than the 2a3
Thanks Bob
Follow Ups:
Well, I'll defend the 300b. I have owned and heard a number of amps that work with both, and for a long time was listening primarily to SET amps. For both SE and PP it all depends on the implementation. For me, the 300b has a much richer, and more interesting sound. I really like the SE 300b midrange. The 2A3 seems sort of boring in comparison.... I get good extension and bass with Thorsten's Legacy circuit and Tango XE603.5s transformers. The C3M drivers keep it lively. I am driving Lowther Acousta 115's with DX3's, Visaton super tweeters in my living room system. The same amps also did a nice job with Fulton FMI80's. I do like the sound of 45's though. On the other hand, for my Phy-hp's with Tonian tweeters, I listen to a Citation II!
David
I agree it depends on implementation, transformers, and the brand of tubes, etc, but in general 300B = Cabernet, bold, thick and liquid; 2A3 = Pinot, subtle, finesse and complex. Just my two sips.
PS some Chinese 300B's sound like White Zin, the audio equivalent of cotton candy.
The 300B wins the power contest. The 2A3 is more linear so all things being equal it's a more accurate reproducer.
"The 2A3 is more linear so all things being equal it's a more accurate reproducer."
I think the engineers at Western Electric would have a good laugh at the assertion that the 2A3 is "more linear."
I recall calling a friend who spent decades designing triode amps. I asked him how good the vaunted 300B was. He said about a B+. I was surprised so I asked what tube he liked better. He said the 2A3. I trust my friend. And I know that the MOST important quality for him in any audio device was linearity.Then I recalled what the 300B was designed for. It wasn't primarily fidelity. It was meant to amplify long distance signals and to be buried in the ground. So I suspect it was a good tube(in the days of Ma Bell Western Electric didn't know how to make crap) but ultimate fidelity wasn't necessary. However superb reliability was. Digging up tubes was not what was desired. So the Western Electric 300B was super reliable(whether later copies were may be another question). And I suspect it's this combination of a very good(but not great) performing tube combined with superb quality and reliability that gave the Western Electric version its wonderful reputation, not its sonics alone.
Edits: 07/03/14
"I recall calling a friend " "Digging up tubes"
So your assertion about the relative linerity of the 2A3 vs the 300B is based upon heresay and conjecture. Why not base it on science?
Be serious. It's not conjecture. I know my friend. He worked with tubes for decades. Linearity is measureable and if he said the 2A3 is more linear I'd bet on my friend. He's probably designed more amps than you've thought about.
Heresay:
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.
the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
My friend is an expert. If you choose to ignore good info so the results meet your beliefs, that's fine. You can live with your own truths. Citing definitions doesn't change measureable facts just because you don't like them or like where they come from.And I never said the 300B wasn't a good tube simply that it wasn't as linear as a 2A3.
Edits: 07/07/14 07/07/14
What gets lost in these conversations is just how linear the 300b is compared to most other power tubes.
The 300b, even with it's quirks, is way more linear than any triode wired beam power or power pentode tube.
Just because it's not as linear as a 2a3 or a 45 doesn't mean it's a non-linear tube.
DHTs are in their own class and that class is the most linear power tubes ever made and yes, within that class some are "better" than others.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I never said it wasn't good, just that the 2A3 is better. And a lot of 300B rep is it's great reliability, which is admirable.
Isn't the spacing between -40 and -80 a little bloated with the space between -40 and -60 wider than most and the spacing between -60 and -80 the widest of all?
The 2a3's plate curves have more even spacing across the board.
Wouldn't that lead to less harmonic distortion? (all other thing being equal but they never are)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I am no expert, but can linearity be independent from operating points, primary load and power output?
Would a 2A3 at classic operating points and 2k7 load be more linear/ less distorted as a 300B at 60ma/350V loaded by 6k? At 1W? At 3W? How about at an attempted 6W?
Just wondering?
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
I look at it from the standpoint of a voltage amp.
Constant current source loaded. A horizontal load line.
That's the best case for any tube in terms of harmonic distortion.
The published plate curves show that the 2a3 would have less harmonic distortion within it's capabilities.
But you're right, a 300b making 6 watts will do so with less distortion than a 2a3 trying to make 6 watts.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
As you know, I am currently running 2A3s (and/or maybe 2.5 filament 300B?) - so no horse in the race, so to speak.
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
"Isn't the spacing between -40 and -80 a little bloated with the space between -40 and -60 wider than most and the spacing between -60 and -80 the widest of all?"
Is that an artifact of the plotter, the test, or the tube?
Sure we can measure these 75 year old plate curves with a micrometer to find minor annomalies. The fact remains that the 300B along with other triodes designed in the 1930s are extremely linear. To assert that the 2A3 is more linear than the 300B is just polemics. I use the 2A3 because I don't need the power, but if I were to need a good clean 8W I would build with the 300B.
"To assert that the 2A3 is more linear than the 300B is just polemics. "
I don't see it as an attack at all.
IF the published plate curves ARE correct then the 2a3 IS more linear than the 300b.
Have you looked at the curves for the 45?
BTW Did you read my post arguing the other side? A 300b is a very linear tube. I'm just getting ready to replace my stereo SET 6b4g amp with my mono SET 300b amps. I like changing things up once in a while.
The 300b amps do sound different than the 2a3 (6b4g) amp but that could be do to many things other than the output tube.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"The 300b amps do sound different than the 2a3 (6b4g) amp but that could be do to many things other than the output tube."
Yup
I use both and they are voiced different. Period. Is one better than the other? Maybe. Depends. What is the circuit topology? What is the space you're trying to fill? What speakers? What is your source material? Did you wake up cranky? What kind of preamp are you using? Why? For this thought exercise let us avoid cables... You see where this is going.
I love both. I mix and match endlessly. I get tired of a particular sound and need change. Neither one is better and I am fine with that kind of ambiguity in my life. There are simply too many other things which are more important.
Like what am I having for dinner?
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Other than the obvious power differences, the sonic differences have a lot to do with how the tube is driven and the quality of the output transformers. Both can sound good or bad depending on the implementation. Done right, you would be hard pressed to reliably randomly, blindly pick out one from the other putting out one watt.
I'd say that 300b has better bass due to higher power handling while 2a3 may sound sweeter in the midrange - it all depends on your particular amp (especially the OT used) and particular system. One thing's for sure - 300b has more umph.
I own both amps and each of them has strengths and weaknesses.
My experience is similar to that of Onemug--the 2a3 has a tighter bass response and a more extended and open sounding top end, while the 300b is has a midrange and upper bass prominent sound with somewhat muddy bass response. Of course particular implementation will affect how each tube will sound.
edit: moving this to the right spot.
Edits: 07/01/14
I find the 2a3 to do the extremes better (especially the highs) and the 300b to have that delicious midrange.
Your chosen speakers will have a great influence over what you hear though.
I don't remember where I heard that but you surely know more than myself.
The 300b has more power correct?
"but you surely know more than myself. "
Not really. "Your" ears and what "they" hear are what counts.
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