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Just wondering what ever happened to them. After twenty years of reading posts, I have the unique privilage of seeing how HISTORY reviewed those claims.
charles
Follow Ups:
They realized cryotreatment was BS and closed up shop?
High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk
The cryo lab recently sent back a matched pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT and a matched pair of 1942 Ken Rad 6SN7GT. Have not listened to them yet. Unless one is using Herbies tube dampers I suspect the whole cryo exercise might be a little fruitless. Just saying.
> > > Have not listened to them yet.
> > > I suspect the whole cryo exercise might be a little fruitless.Way to keep an open mind.
Like I said -
Those that claim it is snake oil and
refuse anyone's claims of improvement
as succumbing to brainwashing or hype.DanL
Edits: 04/04/14
Revers-o change-o and what do we get?
Those that claim it (cryo) makes an improvement and refuse anyone's claims that it is snake oil (are) succumbing to brainwashing or hype.
An open mind makes nothing a fact.
You appear to be saying listen to those with no experience instead of those with experience. That's a novel way to look at things.
...I said absolutely nothing regarding "no experience". More to the point: why should the assertion "cryo treated tubes sound better" be the only possibility? Why is it not possible cryo treatment makes no difference at all or, heaven forbid, it makes tubes sound worse?
All this "open mind stuff" in favor of cryo (and some other dubious audio tweaks) is just a red herring.
Some years ago, perhaps a decade or more, I ran across a significant quantity of Black Plate Triple Mica GE 5751's made in the 50's(as pictured above) packed in large military boxes with tubes packed inside with crinkly brown paper.
I traded a large portion of them with 'Tube World' (exchanged for two NOS/NIB RCA Globe 10's) with the agreement that he would have them CRYOED and send a couple matched pairs back after they were CRYOED and tested for noise.
Long story short, I ended keeping two pair of the original un-CRYOED stock and received back two CRYOED pair such that I could do a direct comparison.
All of the tubes were noise free in my Phono Pre-amp, none were mircrophonic.
This particular 5751 is a great sounding tube and was my favorite as a gain stage in my modified 6550 PP power amp.
OK, perhaps it was not the GREATEST amp in the world but at least very sensitive to tube rolling.
I'd have to say that in this case, the CRYOED tubes won hands down BUT...
I would not argue that CRYOing might also make a BAD sounding tube sound WORSE!
Or make no difference at all.
Also not sure how long the effect lasts, as shortly after this exercise, I built a pair of 300B SET monoblocks and stopped using 'Shitty Little Nine Pin Tubes'in my amps! ;-)
I have never done a comparo. I have bought cryo tubes from Cryoset on ebay because Rick does do thorough testing.
We know from experience that almost anything cryo'd sounds better. Have you ever stopped to consider why nearly every high end cable manufacturer employs cryogenics? Hint: it's because they can't compete otherwise.
... You dismiss those who've tried it and found no difference or found it worse. And it doesn't answer the question. That cable mfgrs offer cyro treated product doesn't answer the question either. Astrologers exist because there's a market for them. Their existence doesn't prove they can foretell the future based on birth dates and the alignment of planets and constellations. Successfully supplying into a market proves there's a market, nothing more.
Maybe we should conduct a poll? I think I know of someone nearby who has recent experience.
You can throw away all the reports of "it didn't do anything" and "it made matters worse." They are anomalies, outliers. Most folks who tried it get good results.
...and pay attention only to the positive reports. Seems kind of closed minded to deny the existence of outcomes known to occur.
One reason why some folks have negative results with cryo is actually quite simple. It's because an item just back from the cryo lab will not sound very good, even kind of harsh and funny sounding, for a period of perhaps a week - this is due to the temporary effect of cryo on the materials, thermal shock. Other reasons might include the system was not resolving enough, the person was physically unable to appreciate the effect, his memory was not good enough to remember what it sounded like before cryo properly without the ability to A/B.
Give up, dude.
People like Steve won't see the truth.
Provide them with evidence and
they claim it isn't valid or made up.
Provide then with scientific explanation and
they say where's the white paper or the journal.
It will never be good enough for them.
I learned long ago with these types 8^(
DanL
PS Steve don't even try baiting me because it won't work.
Please recall my discussion originally centered on the tendency of true believers to dismiss the neutral or negative outcome and labeling those who experience them as "closed minded". I simply pointed out that the true believer might actually be the closed minded person with their absolute denial of the other outcomes regarding something as subtle as a sonic change induced by a physical treatment process adapted from other fields and based mostly on faith. I did not state cryo induced effects were pure fantasy; only that I'm doubtful because there's primarily anecdotal evidence and there are many neutral and some negative reports outcomes.
...and totally unconvincing. Poor system resolution and unskilled listener are tired old excuses that could be applied to just about anything. If the effects of cryo or any other tweak is so profound, it ought not require cutting edge 1 percenter equipment and post doc listening skills to reliably discern them.
Care to give it another shot?
I agree with that, Steve-O
BRING ON THE EMPIRICAL TESTING D: < *flex*
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May your tubes be lively and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
Asking for a friend.
Nt
Uh, what I actually said was,"Unless you use Herbies tube dampers, I suspect the whole cryo exercise might be a little fruitless." You probably missed the part about my using cryo for the past 15 years.
"You can't tell the trolls without a scorecard." - Old audiophile axiom
Edits: 04/04/14
I just bought two pairs of AX7s(cryoed).
His-Story usually reflects his side of the story. Her side might be different.
Me? I like 'em.
Cryo-treated tubes have always remained a curiosity, but I'm really skeptical. I'm not super scientist, but I know a thing or two about physics and chem. It could be true, but the overall matter is confused at best.
For me, certain things come to mind
- The extreme cold should in theory make the materials of the tube contract. I would be worried about physically damaging the tube. What about pin-to-glass seals in the base? What about solder and weld points? Does the mica contract at the same rate as the glass?
- A tube is still a large device, and there's some amount of play and "give" between all the components. Take grid posts, for example, which sometimes feature grooves to help align and secure the grid. Would a treatment further secure the grid, or would the post freeze first, and potentially "pop" the grid out of place like a cracking ice out of a tray?
- There's some garble about molecular alignments in metals and whatnot. Frankly, I dare anyone to tell me exactly how a copper-nickel alloy reacts to drops in temperature versus thoriated tungsten or gold. I cannot readily find the information.
Looking at people's impressions of these products, I get the feeling it's just really good cherry-picking, and not the cryotreatment. Reading the reviews, we generally hear about better frequency extension, more lively soundstage, lower noise floor, etc. Frankly, are those not all attainable characteristics via better testing and matching?
So, I figure it's like this. Suppose we have a VERY stringent testing and matching process. First, the tube must operate for a sustained time at maximum or near maximum parameters. Second, the tubes are not only electrically matched, but sonically as well; each tube goes through a battery of frequency tests to determine which are most alike across the control grid's operating points.
Out of the gate, you'll have only maybe 2 quads out of 100 tubes that get the passing grade, at which point the quality and labour will hike up the tube's price. Assuming you knew it was entirely safe, what is it to throw those sets through a cryotreatment process? At the time of purchase, the buyer gets a sense of added value. For the seller, they have an already expensive quad which is either made more expensive still, or sells on the merit of being well-selected with the added "free" bonus of a cold bath. Note how there are no special warranties for the Black Sable products at the TubeDepot...
The site linked below claims a boost in transconductance after the treatment, but there's not even a little data table to explain with some numbers to even tickle us.
So, I say HOGWASH til someone develops a testing process similar to the one I described, replicates the cryotreatment process, buys a lot tubes, runs a series of comparisons and control tests, and provides solid tangible data. Really, all you need is 2 quads (one perfectly matched, the other so-so) which you divide into pairs after.
- Pairs 1 of the PerfectQuad and So-SoQuad get the cold bath
- Pairs 2 of the PerfectQuad and So-SoQuad are your control sample
Measure the characteristics before and after treatment. And voila, the answer no one wants to truly openly publish...
One shaves best when the razor is run under cold water. That said, tubes do not grow beards.
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May your tubes be lively and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
FIRE!!!!!
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May your tubes be lively and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
Good post. You also brought up the black sable branding; I found that line's pricing insulting even at a time when I wanted to turn off my brain and believe in cryo-treatment.
I suspect we can probably throw away most if your objections since, by inspection, tubes are not damaged by the cryo process. I don't blame you for fretting over it, however.
A few points:
pin to glass seals are determined by material selection and manufacturers select material which have similar thermal contraction and expansion rates
Nothing is soldered internally within a tube envelope. Only soldering is for power tubes to attach the lead outs to the base pins
Good cryo techniques utilize a very slow ramp down and an equally slow ramp up so that the materials are at the same temperature.
The grooves you refer to in the grid post are cut with a slitting machine and the grid wires inserted into the slit, The slits are then mechanically burnished down, As for freezing priority see point above.
As for metal transformation see the effects of cryogenic treatment of steel, Nickel which makes up most of the plate structure is essentially nickel.
NOTE I am not attempting to refute your points , just pointing out certain incongruities in your argument(s).
It should be noted that for outgassing of tubes, a certain amount of molecular air is dissolved molecularly within the materials used in construction. One wire manufacturer with whom I have spoken to, told me cryogenically treating copper increases the purity of the base metal by the contracting of the metal which literally squeezes out some of the dissolved gas. In a tube, of course this gas will still be contained in the glass envelop but then the getter has better access to the gas for absorption.
Any way, food for thought.
Thanks unclestu for the info! I really appreciate the input and actually discussing the matter. I find there isn't enough info from a single source that completely covers the intricacies of the process. I feel there's just a lot of "up in the air" info one has to take for granted. Or you have to ask a dozen gurus to be certain. And even then, again, what's a cold bath for an already cherry-picked tube?
I can see why a tube would not suffer damage. I was aware the materials were selected for their expansion rates, but I just didn't know if it applied to both hot and cold extremes and whether it all followed linearly. And thanks for telling be about how the grids are assembled. I thought they were more delicately installed than that.
As for the spare gasses infusing themselves into the tube's materials, I guess it's possible. But wouldn't operating tubes for a time excite any of those gasses, leaving the getter to do its work? I wish I knew more about metallurgy hahahaha
And for the solder bit, that's what I meant (pins and bases on power tubes). Ya, everything else is a weld. :P
JoeKool - Do you have any A/B comparison experience you can share?
And geoffkait, ya, the physical consequences seem to be nil (at least perhaps for most tubes). However, the jury's still out on whether it does anything beyond that. Share your experiences with your 6SN7GT's you get the chance!
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May your tubes be lively and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
It only took one A/B comparison for me to 'buy' into the cryo-world, a pair of cryoed TungSol 12AX7 vs. a stock pair.
The cryoed pair sounded 'better' to my ears than the stock pair, better midrange density, better soundstage depth/width, better percussive tone...my comparison was done long term, I lived with the stock tubes for 3 months, then switched to the cryoed pair for a couple months, then switched back to the stock tubes, that's when the impressions were starkly in my face.
And since Cryoset sells cryoed tubes for almost the same price of stock, to me it was a no-brainer. Now my experience is limited to small signal tubes, dunno if the hotter power tubes yields 'better' performance, never tried those.I also had a power cord cryoed, copper wire with rhodium connectors, sounded terrible imo. So maybe cryo is not for everything. Cost me $25. for that lesson.
Tube tests took place in my CAT pre line stage. Was not triple blind, double blind or even just blind...so YMWV.
Edits: 04/04/14
Interesting... hmm, I'll have to give it a shot some time. Just to see if I can really tell what's going on here. Again... skeptical because I don't believe everyone has the whole behind-the-scenes picture. And, well, the reps who sell them haven't chimed with the data. But, if there's experience and merit to it all, maybe it's not crazy...
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May your tubes be lively and long-lasting. Holy be thy heater.
I don't believe cryogenic treatment of a vacuum tube does anything WRT "outgassing". The internals of properly mfgd receiving tube are heated to incandescence while on the vacuum pump. This process causes most gasses adsorbed or clinging to surfaces to become "airborne" and it increases the effectiveness of the pumping process.
Cryo techniques applied to parts not specifically designed for them strike me as one of those episodes of life where it "works" because it's expected to work.
I've tried some new production cryo and I'm not sure about the process.
I have seen NOS Mullards that were cryo and I'll pass on that.
My take on cryo treated tubes amounts to a big yawn. If there had been a truly objective improvement the tube manufacturers would have embraced the technique as a value added proposition in order to enhance their bottom line. They haven't. In the factories where this technique could have been employed on a large scale, nada. It is still a boutique item.
Still remembering a "Blessing of Cassette Decks" being held in Southern California... I have no idea where THAT thought came from!
That's my reaction as well. Though my experience is limited, I've bought some cryo-treated NOS 12AU7 & AX7 tubes. Though they sounded good, I quite easily found a number of different non-cryo variants of both types (even non-NOS equipment pulls) that I liked much better.
I seem to remember those popping up once?
charles
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
They are still available, and people still buy them. Its just not unique any more. I'm not sure what you think you see in HISTORY.
Jack
Charles
Just like everything else ...
You have 2 camps -
1) Those that claim is is snake oil
and refuse anyone's claims of improvement
as succumbing to brainwashing or hype.
2) Those that have tried it and found
anywhere from subtle to dramatic improvement.
DanL
You forgot
3) Those who are horrified by the idea of subjecting NOS tubes to extreme temperatures.
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