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In Reply to: RE: Does a tube that looks and tests NOS but comes from unused gear qualify as NOS? posted by Michael Samra on November 04, 2009 at 09:31:43
Hi Mikey,
Yup I know about the bulk pack thing but he's including in his definition of NOS tubes that have been installed in 'unused' equipment.
When I get my Quad IIs unpacked I plan on trying them out, ;^).
Just finished rebuilding that pair of Electrohome 6V6 slave amps I picked up recently. Boy they sound great now! Used one of the CDE polys after the rectifier.
Cheers
Lar
I don't see the point in getting into semantics, but just for the record if the equipment is "unused" then by definition it is new.
The problem as I see it is that the term: 'unused' is sort of a gray area. To one person 'unused' may mean that it was plugged in and tested for a while but then taken out of service. The person taking the tubes out of the gear has to take the person they got the 'unused' equipment from at their word so the 'unused' term is probably not first hand but second or third hand information. In other words it's impossible to confirm.
Cheers
Lar
Quote: "The problem as I see it is that the term: 'unused' is sort of a gray area."
Yes, it's rather a bit like zombies and vampires - i.e., they're "undead". What exactly is that, anyway?
I don't really "get" this thread at all. A tube is a tube is a tube. If it looks like new, tests like new and smells like new, why not consider it a new tube? After all, it's indistinguishable from new.
Just reflect on the fact that you can get much worse condition tubes in new never-been-opened boxes.
If you've got new testing tubes, frankly that's all you need to know.
andy
A tube is not a tube, and if it tests new, it's not necessarily new at all.
A tube's useful life is not linear. It will test as new during most of it's useful life, and then when it starts to decline, will do so very rapidly.
So unfortunately there is a prtoblem here. Far too many tubes that test as new are sold as NOS when, in fact, they are very heavily used and have relatively little useful life left in them.
That, in itself, may not be a problem if they are priced low. But they are almost always not, being sold on auctions that prey on the obsessiveness of audiophiles who, given that true NOS is now quite rare and given the scarcity of desireable tubes, end up parting with far too much money for what they actually receive in longevity of (supposed) audio bliss.
I have had new testing tubes that have cathodes stripped from use - in many cases, the cathodes are gonzo long before output declines - and I have had tubes that test new for a very short time then drop off the cliff.
In terms of pulls and supposed bulk stock, it has long been a practice of an all too large number of tube sellers - usually the selling out of my basement type - to pass off tubes that look, test and smell like new as "from bulk pack", "NOS in white box" or "NOS from unused equipment". In most cases, what they have is a tube that looks, tastes and smells like new that they are trying to elevate the price of by giving the buyers a false sense of security.
The simple reality is that, aside from a small number of professional dealers (and even those have a fair number of suspect tubes) there has been very little NOS of desireable audio tube types for a long time, and pretty much everthing - especially virtually everything on Ebay - is highly suspect at this stage.
Be careful here... I think you are painting with a very broad brush.
For example, you wrote:
"In terms of pulls and supposed bulk stock, it has long been a practice of an all too large number of tube sellers - usually the selling out of my basement type - to pass off tubes that look, test and smell like new as "from bulk pack", "NOS in white box" or "NOS from unused equipment". In most cases, what they have is a tube that looks, tastes and smells like new that they are trying to elevate the price of by giving the buyers a false sense of security.
This could EASILY lead someone to believe that unless a tube comes with a box they deem to be original that the tube is a fraud. Not so! Do you want me to take some pictures of the 12AT7 bulk stock RFTs I have? Or the EZ81s? Or the 6GK5 Hitachis? I can't take a pic of the bulk pack Ei KT-90s I had 500 of a few years back, they're gone. How about the older tubes where the boxes have simply disintegrated or had rodent damage?
You can say that an unscrupulous vendor could take advantage of the fact that some tubes will not come packed in an original retail box - but I think that's all you can say. Believe me, your post will require me to spend HOURS assuring people that they are getting the product they paid for.
"I have had new testing tubes that have cathodes stripped from use - in many cases, the cathodes are gonzo long before output declines"
Please explain how you made this determination... what tests did you run? How did you determine the decrease in cathode activity was from stripping (which BTW RARELY occurs at typical audio gear voltages)? How is it that a tube with a depleted cathode ("the cathodes are gonzo") is able to operate normally - what caused the later decline?
"The simple reality is that, aside from a small number of professional dealers (and even those have a fair number of suspect tubes)..."
This is a pretty strong accusation. Could you please tell me which tubes I've sent out have been suspect - and how you made that determination?
I don't do that kind of stuff, I never did that kind of stuff - so I don't want to be painted with that same broad brush.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I will always respond to this sort of post the way I did. Some of us out here do a damn good job of offering quality and value in the products we send out. And I for one am very sensitive about being caught up in sweeping generalizations.
.
For me NOS is New Old Stock with an emphasis on the stock part. Once it's been taken out of stock and installed it's no longer in stock so it's no longer NOS to my mind. Still like you say the important thing is how the tube tests and looks.
No more of a guarantee with buying a tube that's in a box that it is truly NOS and has never been used.
Cheers
Lar
Also, problem is just becuase tube is truly NOS, doesn't mean it's going to be the best sounding tube of the lot. Or last the longest. These days some NOS aren't too good. Like the leftovers of all the NOS tubes which have already been sold. Just my opinion.
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