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I have been playing with EL34s the last couple days and I have tested the XF1s and XF2s and Amperex D getters and the metal base phillips even tho they say Mullard and telfunken 5 staple and Siemens and the wing Cs.
Honestly,the SED EL34 wing Cs,bested both the xf1 and xf2s for detail and clarity.The Siemens were also very detailed and had a more correct demeanor than the xf1 and xf2s..I used the leak si50 and the scott 240s for the amps and the c20 preamps and speakers were the custom built wood horns I have.
The D getter dutch built amperexs were like the wing Cs in a lot of ways and they are an excellent choice as far as vintage tubes go.The metal base ones were decent but way overrated.I have 28 of the metal based ones but I will be putting most on ebay.
I will have more results later and I didnt do the 6ca7 in this comparison because its different and better IMHO than many el34s.What I did find overall was the wing Cs are tough to beat for an el34,at least in my setups.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Funny, how folks differ in opinions, or how their amps differ. Not many mention that the plate voltage can have a significant effect. Sound also depends on circuit = Source (DAC) > PA > Speakers. Room. Ears. Age. Taste.How can any audiophile rule on sound of EL-34?
Except me, of course.
SEDs very good (circa Y2000), not great. DD getter Holland = great. Xf2 Blackburn, depends. This variety sounds VERY VERY different depending on amp--low plate voltage (425V), it sounds like 'SET'. High plate voltage (575V) can be shrill. Amazing to me how the sound of this tube varies. Xf1 Blackburn, similar to DD-getter Holland, better depth, better balance.
I tried the Tesla 'brown feet' early '70s. Horrible. I tried Matsushita black plate--they sound like shita. JJ tesla modern production--well I NEVER buy that brand since they had their QC problems with pin diameter and the distributor knew it, but refused returns.
In several amps with several speakers, the NOS always beat out SED. I thought so, my entire family in blind tests thought so. In fact, when I first swapped out the SED for Xf2 Blackburn EL34 (at 500V), they thought I got a new amp, and liked the NOS much better.
No single person rule on sound of EL-34?
Except me, of course.
Edits: 07/12/09
I use a quad of Dutch Philips double D getter ring EL-34's in a ST-70 and there is a world of difference over the Sed winged "C" tubes.
The Seds are just OK,there cheap and available!
Camrahnbay
I agree about the D getter amperex being better than the sed but not the mullard XF2s..I found even my NOS OO getters to lack midrange clarity..
The thing is,when the amps are upgraded as all mine are,I find the new production tubes to be pretty dang good..I consider the wing Cs vintage build because the st petersburg plant has been building tubes forever it seems and they have a nice product..I hear lots of great things about the 6550 SEDs also,.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Michael,
Must be a good week for racing EL34s. I was moderately excited about the SED Flying Cs myself....well, that was until my friend sent over some NOS Matsushita 6CA7/EL34s. This tube physically looks like your usual "skinny" EL34, not the typical 6CA7. Once the music starts playing however, all bets are off. The Matsushita is in another league entirely. The best EL34 I've heard since the Phillips 6CA7s in my old CJ MV50 ( from memory of course). I'll listen to them again tomorrow to make sure it wasn't the wine.
Mick
I have noticed that also that the matsushita tubes are very nice..Another thing is,people are always saying how great the A420 dynaco cloth lead output tranformers are but I find the Japanese plastic lead machine wound transformers every bit as good and maybe better.Japan isn't early china where things were unreliable and sounded bad.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Yes, when I think of Japanese vacuum tube gear, names like the original Audio Note, Shindo,( spelling?) Luxman and Air Tight come to mind just to name a few. Hardly entry level and highly regarded for sure.
Mikey, thanks for the report. I wish I live close to you.
Wal.
Walter
move yourself closer..You can starve just as easy in the US as you can in Canada.I should know because I do it all the time.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Every time I try a SED EL34 it just doesn't do it for me in either stereo or guitar applications. I like their 6L6GC though. For stereo I find the top end of it to be rolled off/recessed to a greater extent then I like. For guitar I find that it just doesn't have the magic. I like the Mullard XF2 much much more. It has a magical quality in a guitar amp and sounds more balanced for music when I tried em. The only tube I'd take over the Mullard for guitar without a 2nd thought is a brown based Tesla el34. Those are super nice. I never tried them with a stereo though.
"I find the top end of it to be rolled off/recessed to a greater extent then I like"
Danny,thats very possible..I find most all el34s rolled off on the top and shallow on the bass but this was only a couple amps that I compared them in and the ones I was using said Svetlana wing C and had black bases..I also used the wing C brown bases..I didnt say they were that great.What I did say was,I found them as good as any of my vintage mullards and better for detail..Maybe its just in the Leak or the lk150 scott so I cant be sure.I will do more testing.I just cant get el34s to work for me like the 6L6s do for audio..I know in guitar they can be desirable and I know many people like them but for my use,I cant seem to get them to perform like the Kt66s or EL37s or 6L6gcs.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
i swapped C-wings to Tung-sol EL34B tubes and like these more. more balanced and better highs. decently priced too, after all i need two quads each time i roll EL34's...
Ill have to try the tungsol el34s..Are those the same as the new sensor mullards?..You are about the 3rd person that really likes the TS el34s.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
The hype on the Tungsols is that they sound 6L6ish until drove hard then they sound EL34ish due to a higher impedance plate. I assume in a stereo if the claim is true they'd sound like a 6L6 due to never being pushed hard enough to break up. You'd know better then I.
If they sound 6L6ish,thats the EL34 for me because I love 6L6s.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
No EL34 ever done a thing for me in home entertainment amps. I will always recommend an EL34 based amp to be changed to 6L6 family. I like 6L6G shoulder glass to 375 volts plate to cathode or RCA 6L6GB tall glass in higher voltage applications. I do not know the RCA 6L6GC vs GB seies sonic differences. Do you?
As for the plate dissapation differences, the GC has a special plate that dissapates heat better. I think it is a tri-metal design.
Neff
I hear ya buddy..I can't get used to EL34s either because I can't stomach the inconsistentcies and how they change from one cut to the next.
" I do not know the RCA 6L6GC vs GB seies sonic differences. Do you?"
There are many similarities and even the 6N3C-e sounds similar but they produce higher power and they are not quite as refined as the 6L6g.
Dan was saying the Tungsol really is something and I still have to get some.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
but i doubt if they are identical.
http://www.newsensor.com/
I've had differing results in Hiwatt & Marshall amps re: Mullards versus Svetlana. I believe that the Svet's (=C=) have better vacuum than the xf1 and xf2, which I believe were made as "cheap" subs for the RCA 6L6GC which were expensive imported item with surtax for English manufacturer's at the time. The thinner construction and lower vacuum of the Mullards gave them the unique tone over the 6L6GC varieties. Not neccesarily better or worse, just different.
To me, the Svetlana sounds a bit closer to the original GEC/MOV KT-77 tone. Have you had a chance to test this tube in your units? For hi-fi apps, I would think the KT-77 and NOS US 6CA7 tone are what most folks are after.
I haven't seen graphs of distortion versus output, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Mullard EL34 have the highest distortion characteristics versus the others (KT-77, 6L6GC, 6CA7, etc).
One other thing, that I've mentioned before, it's very difficult to find GOOD NOS Mullards anymore. I've bought $$$ NOS ones that tested well, but either didn't sound good or were noisy or both. For Marshalls I've resorted to selected JJ or Tesla E34L subs to try and keep the amp as close to the original Mullard tone. Svetlana sound good, but lend a more Fender-ish tone which most Marshall owners do not want. Kinda too bad, as Svets tend to last longer than JJ's.
Have a good one!
Fender, have you tried the Grove Tube XF2 "reissue" in a guitar amp yet? I'm just wondering if it sounds anything at all like the real thing.
Also have you compared the EH 6CA7 to the NOS?
No, I haven't tried the new GT re-issues, yet. As for the 6CA7... The EH 6CA7 tone doesn't compare to the original STR-6CA7 (STR-416) in Mesa Boogie's Mark III (most recent amp I've used 6CA7). The headroom and harmonics seemed to be lacking with the EH tubes.
It could be that the Mesa-Boogie just pushes the power tubes a bit too hard for the EH. I think they run about 490-500 VDC on the plates and 485-490 on the screen. Plus, all the "simul-class" grimmicks may not suit this tube well.
Most EL34 amps get the JJ or Tesla E34L, as those amps with any 6CA7 do NOT sound well (let's just say, not well to guys used to hearing EL34). I remember replacing some GE 6CA7 into a guy's Matchless Cheiftain and just that simple change made the amp sound sterile. Nice bass. Clean highs. No midrange. None of the nice harmonics that makes EL34 unique.
BTW... if you know of anyone that is selling the red or blue glass NOS Tesla EL34 (or better E34L) and the pink ceramic based STR-416 (6CA7), I'd appreciate it.
For some reason I just don't dig Mesa Boogies. Maybe I resent them for being the weapon of choice for the super crappy midrangeless Metallica tone that everyone tried to emulate after. Give me a 4 input Marshall or a Twin and I'm happy. I've always heard that Van Halen used 6CA7 in his magical head so I figured they sounded pretty good. I never had the chance to hear them in action though. From your experience with them I probably shouldn't go out of my way to.
Edits: 07/01/09
you give them 100 to 200 hours break in..They are very well made with a great vacuum and they get better and better over time.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Mike, tonally they remind me of 6L6GC versus the EL34 (in a neutral sounding amp). I was just warning that in the few guitar amps that come with 6CA7 stock, Mesa-Boogie being one of them, the new EH 6CA7 which I tried, didn't seem to like the stock plate voltages and/or oddball bias settings that Mesa-Boogie had in some of their amps, at the time.
Mike, tonally they remind me of 6L6GC versus the EL34 (in a neutral sounding amp). I was just warning that in the few guitar amps that come with 6CA7 stock, Mesa-Boogie being one of them, the new EH 6CA7 which I tried, didn't seem to like the stock plate voltages and/or oddball bias settings that Mesa-Boogie had in some of their amps, at the time
Steve
I dont doubt that at all..I wish I knew more about guitar amps and I could have more input especially if I knew how to play but,we have you and a couple others so that will get us by.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
believe that the Svet's (=C=) have better vacuum than the xf1 and xf2, which I believe were made as "cheap
Steve,you hit it in a nutshell..The vacuum on the el34s especially the vintage ones are soft.That somtimes gives it a desirability on some frequencies as it tends to roll off the high end and by doing that, you hear more of the midrange and because the mids are where 85% of the music is,some may like it.
The history of the EL34 is kind of interesting because the MOV company,wanted somthing cheaper,and easier to build and easier to drive with a slim profile that would replace the EL37 which is esentially a 6L6gc .The el34 is what they came up with and it had mixed reviews.You had people like Peter Walker from Quad that tried the EL34s with the ESL 57s and that was a no go so he stuck with the Kt66s being they were more linear..This was a lot of the reason I never use an EL34 based amp with the Martin Logans or the acoustats..I could never get any high end or upper midrange detail but strangely,the 6ca7s worked fine.I think possibly the ESLs may produce back EMF by design and that could be why the EL34 reacts to them differently.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Did you try Genelex reissue KT-77s? I have a set breaking in right now and I am real pleased with the sound, but I don't have your experience with vintage tubes to put the reissues in proper context.
Dave
Yes I have tried the Gene kt77s and the JJ kt77s...They both sound better than the el34 but I'm just not an EL34 fan..I am so hooked on the 6L6g and the 6L6gc black plates and the EL37s and the kt66s and the 6N3C-e and the 807s that I can't get used to the el34s for what I am looking for in a tube..The 6550/Kt88s are real nice if you get good ones like the TS or genelex or the SEDs but those 6L6g's,and that RCA black plates and the 6N3C-E spoil the hell out of you.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
I bought some JJ KT77 from Mike over a year ago and so far had no negative issues with them.
Recently I got some re-issued GL KT77. They now have about 100 hours on them and so I did a brief comparisson between both.
GL KT 77 have full and warm mids, less highs than the JJ
JJ KT77 are lean in comparsisson to the GL and have more highs
Well, at the moment I am using one JJ and one GL KT77 in each channel, since my amp runs in PP.
Sounds pretty good so far. Combines the fuller mids and extended highs.
Pardon my ignorance, but what's PP?
Is a GL/JJ combo something that might work in an ST-70?
Thanks
PP stands for Push Pull, in contrast to SET - Single ended triode.
The JJ/GL only works if you can adjust the bias individually for each tube, since they have different bias points (according to my biasing aid in my amp)
Capt
Thats about what I found exactly.Its hard to pick a winner because they both do different things well.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
Have you tried any 6l6 or other power tubes in your scott 240's?
I have a rebuilt pair and was told I could try some other power tubes and have never gotten around to it.
bkrop
I havent in the scotts because I would have to raise the neg bias voltage to run 6L6gcs..I have tried others in the leak SI-50 which takes EL34/kT66s/5881s and 6L6gcs of course and in the last three just stomp the EL34s into the dirt.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.
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