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In Reply to: RE: 6SL7 C4S driver ... posted by deathtube 667 on May 11, 2015 at 17:50:45
"...too lazy, not enough gain or jump factor..."
I would define "not enough gain" as not being able to reach the output power wanted or required for your purposes with the available source signal voltage.
Do you care to define "too lazy" and/or lack of "jump factor"?
I have wondered about this for some time now.
Thanks.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Follow Ups:
I always thought that the expression 'jump factor' referrred to the sound of an amplifier using a low slew rate driver tube with excessive gain . This , like 'transfer efficiency' or 'transfer function' was invented by a narcissist . The words 'bullshit' or 'bollocks' seem to be more appropriate when substituted for 'transfer efficiency' or 'jump factor'
Al
Al,
You are mightily mistaken !!
In about 2011, ( before the Montana Forest Fire that destroyed Dennis' home ) Dennis took his amps to his local University's E.E. Department to be measured, they elected to measure the amplifier on test gear that specifically measured transfer efficiency, and that is precisely how they did it.
The test instrument set up cost around $2,000,000 Al. So...others, real E.E.s, and some Universities, DO use transfer efficiency. You seemingly are simply not aware of this.
I just posted this to set the record straight. Regards,
Jeff Medwin
What I am aware of is a load of bollocks every time you bring this up . I'm not stupid enough to fall for any of this anecdotal $2,000,000 testrig nonsense without seeing some proof . Also what is 'transfer efficiency' measured in ?
Al
"what is 'transfer efficiency' measured in ?"
Stench.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I think 'Transfer Efficiency" is a property not unlike what one supreme court justice said about "pornography"; "I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it." In the case of TE, substitute "hear it" for "see it". Which does make one wonder just what could have been measured with $2M worth of equipment at Bozeman.
The terms "Transfer Function" and Transfer Efficiency do have definitions in math and physics, but nothing I have read has anything to do with audio.
> Also what is 'transfer efficiency' measured in ?
in kiloBS, megaBS or even gigaBS, depending upon jump factor.
I would have thought it would be measured in Frakers . A Serious Stereo amp has a transfer efficiency of 1 Fraker , anything else won't even make it to 0.9 Fraker etc etc etc
What makes me chuckle with this whole 'transfer efficiency' 'transfer function' thing is that the losses within the output transformer are not even considered but the external wiring to it is :)
Al
"What makes me chuckle with this whole 'transfer efficiency' 'transfer function' thing is that the losses within the output transformer are not even considered but the external wiring to it is :)"
Hardly, the equipment allows you to look at any two points in a circuit, and measure transfer efficiency. I am sure the most classic look would be input to output, which includes the output transformer, doesn't it.
This testing was done in the EE lab at Montana State University, in Bozeman MT. Al. They get NASA work, and they have an extensively equipped EE lab. I am sure if you go there, you will see this equipment they used to measure amplification !!!
Regards...
Jeff Medwin , not Pinocchio
What is transfer efficiency measured in ?
'They get NASA work'
Bollocks...
Al
"What makes me chuckle with this whole 'transfer efficiency' 'transfer function' thing is that the losses within the output transformer are not even considered but the external wiring to it is :)"
Not sure that is a correct assumption.
The OPT winding compliments the unconventional 2A3 operating point DF uses if I remember correctly.
Perhaps either DF or JM will comment further.
You really need to use some common sense , stop relying on those two clowns' dogma and go your own way
Transformer winders tend to balance the copper losses between primary and secondary when producing a design . You can reduce losses by using thicker gauge windings but this means less primary inductance or a bigger core . All output transformers have losses , in fact , I believe this is the most lossy part in an SE amplifier . If you have a DCR of 200 ohms in the primary and 0.8 ohms in the secondary then the DCR of the leadouts is irrelevant no matter how thick the wire . So much for 'transfer function' when you consider the DCR involved !!!
Al
I've actually learned some good things from JM that I use all the time.
The more I get into higher quality/high efficiency transducers like Altec , the reality of some of his ideas starts to make more sense to me.
I got my rebuilt 414-8B's back from GPA , got the t/s parameters measured and hope to get them in the test boxes this weekend.
My system should take a step forward in efficiency since the 414's measured over 100dB/1W/1M.
' the reality of some of his ideas starts to make more sense to me.'
You are obviously easily influenced by those who shout the loudest . The vast majority of these 'ideas' are based upon junk science , dogma and narcissism . You would be better off finding your own way , you seem stuck on this whole DrLowMu/Dennis nonsense . It's not healthy...
Al
I fell prey to the influence of megalomaniacs.
Woe is me.
Liked it .
Jeff Medwin
I don't know about transfer function, but I do know Dennis doesn't hack up leadouts on output transformers.
Correct !!
So I have a question for you if I may.When you are getting the sound pressure level you want, and your attenuator is wide open. Do you still have the same headroom as you do when you are getting the same SPL at the 12:00 position?
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 05/12/15
Yes.
Headroom has to do with maximum output power not volume control position.
If your system can reach the average SPL you desire at a volume control setting that limits the peak output voltage of the source to something less than a voltage that would drive the output tube to clipping then there is no loss of dynamics.
So 12:00 or 3:00 or wide open, as long as you are getting the average sound pressure level you want and the output tube is not being clipped, even at the peak signal level, then you have enough headroom.
With digital it's cut and dry. My CD player outputs a maximum of 2VRMS (measured).
That is to say, a waveform that reaches digital zero....outputs 2VRMS. The digital system is not capable of outputting any more voltage than that.
If, as in my case, even with the volume control wide open, that 2VRMS (2.88 volts peak) is not enough to drive my output tube to clipping then there is no way I'm "missing" any dynamics.
Having more gain in the driver stage just means that the volume control will have to be turned down more to get the average SPL back down to the same level (where the musical peaks don't clip the output tube).
The relationship between the average level and peak level of the source signal does not change, pre volume control vs. post volume control.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thank you Tre'
----------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Archived posts by DF or JM might be a place for you to investigate the concept of jump factor.
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