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In Reply to: RE: A Mercedes and a bus... posted by cpotl on March 14, 2015 at 20:29:30
I understand the theory and agree with it as far as it goes.
Here's the problem: ALL musical signals contain some artifacts that are identical to common (to both leads) signals in some way-- at some time in the musical cascade (for want of a better term admittedly). Difference signals are not the ONLY components in music.
Push-pull operation applies CMR at certain points in the circuitry (it should-- the more the better-- for push-pull). So does balanced signal systems such as studio wiring, etc.
I'm not arguing that this doesn't occur. What I am saying is that S.E. amplifier operation and also S.E. signal wiring cannot reduce the Common Mode.
In MUSIC, that is an ADVANTAGE. In cleaning-up signal, it is a DISADVANTAGE.
No one is arguing how this works. We all agree here. What I am saying is that artifacts of real music have components that are identical with Common-Mode distortion.
The question before us is-- do we wish to reproduce that common-mode signal or do we want it to be attenuated?
Your answer will put you into one of two camps-- S.E. amps or push-pull. S.E. wiring or balanced?
I think that, in practical terms, all of us are using combinations of both.
The item here is that I understand what each is doing musically.
---Dennis---
Follow Ups:
"Here's the problem: ALL musical signals contain some artifacts that are identical to common (to both leads) signals in some way"
No, music signal does not contain any signal that is common to both "hot" leads.
By definition, music signal is the difference between the two wires (or the one wire and ground in a SE circuit).
There is no signal common to both wires created by the source (microphone/phono cartridge).
Signal common to both wires is, and can only be, noise generated from an outside source that has nothing to do with the music signal generated at the signal source.
Every time you assert the idea that there is signal that is common to both "Hot" wires, in a music signal, you show your ignorance.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Look-- the difference signal is most of what's left after common-mode attenuation has been applied.
It IS NOT----- ALL of the generated signal.
Your microphone-- let's assume it's balanced, is transmitting accurate total information from it's two equal but opposite outputs.. These two outputs truly are equal but opposite. BOTH contain both Common_Mode and difference signal information.
Some would argue that the mike element itself cancels any Common_mode across it. Theoretically, yes, actually it's only partial cancellation because of the mike's internal generator resistance.
However, when you apply a twisted wire pair (your mike's output cable) to the balanced signal, you have now installed an attenuator-- a Common_Mode attenuator.
Anything that the mike delivered that was common to both output leads is now attenuated-- so that mostly, only the difference signal remains..
We can argue all day about who prefers to listen to this sanitized mostly difference-only signal, or who prefers to have his mike cable not attenuate what Common-Mode existed inside the mike-- before the output wiring was applied.., but we cannot deny that a real difference exists.
There's more than just a difference signal that the mike is generating.
In practice, push-pull amps and balanced circuitry is clean because it's been cleaned-up-- mostly all that's left is the difference signal.
S.E. stuff sounds FAR more "real".
It does this because nothing that occurred naturally in the Common_mode is filtered out, sadly leaving only a difference signal to listen to.
A truly balanced difference signal is the Gold Standard for both balanced and push-pull circuitry. The less of anything else it contains, the cleaner and "better" it is.
The problem is that it WILL NOT convey a sense of reality to the listener. It is fully incapable of it.
That leaves S.E.-- distortions, hum and all the rest-- if you want music to sound real.
---Dennis---
" That leaves S.E.-- distortions, hum and all the rest-- if you want music to sound real."
Total, unadulterated, SE-amp-marketer, bull cookies.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Dennis, I didn't even read your whole post.The microphone is not capable of generating common mode signal.
If the two "hot" wires are at the same potential, one vs. the other, you have silence. No signal.
This would happen when there is no signal and at zero crossing. In other words, when there is no voltage potential between the two "Hot" wires it's because, in that moment, there is no signal, nada, nothing.
I think it's OK to cancel nothing.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 03/15/15 03/15/15
> Every time you assert the idea that there is signal that is common
> to both "Hot" wires, in a music signal, you show your ignorance.
Incompetence, to be precise.
Like other insanely dumb "idea" to bias cable & interconnects with hum to make them respond quickly to musical transients.
I am not sure the exact source of these claims, but consider the marketing required for the amps he sells at the price he commands. There has got to be some stated reason to go and buy his v. something else. Examine the target market. Is it comprised of engineers capable of design and building their own vision? I don't think so.
Now the entertaining question is( IMO), does dennis actually believe the stuff he is saying?
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
> Now the entertaining question is( IMO), does Dennis actually
> believe the stuff he is saying?
1000% he does.
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