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In Reply to: RE: power supply vs sound? posted by vinnie2 on February 23, 2015 at 05:35:57
I am staying out of this because
I have already stated my stance.
Also I assume it is a follow up on
my and TKs earlier thread.
DanL
Follow Ups:
Not entirely Danl. I have read quite a few things here and elsewhere on the net that made me think it was worth asking for some more opinions about the whether the psu or the tube type might have the greatest influence on the "sound" a given amp has.
Vinnie
Two threads down I made the assertion
that tubes are the most important factor.
TK I think dissagrees because he likes to.
You cannot get a Chevette to perform like
the Viper no matter how much you modify it.
You cannot get an EL84 to sound like a KT88.
And vice versa is also true.
There are many other contributing factors but
tube choice is the major factor on amp sound.
DanL
I think your analogy is somewhat flawed. I would compare the different tubes to say different tires on a car. With wider tires equating better performance like KT88 and narrower tires less performance like EL84. The engine to the car is the constant like the power supply. Upgrading the engine can increase performance as any car enthusiast knows. Likewise any tube amp circuit will be limited by its electronic engine or its power supply. regards, Dak
Sorry
The tires transfer power from engine to road so
it would equate to the OPT (tube to speaker).
I realize the PS is the flavor of the moment
but in reality, which will settle in eventually,
it will return to the supporting role it always was.
Power supply is like the carburetor/fuel injector
which can limit performance but can never make
the performance better than the engine (tube).
No Replacement for Displacement.
DanL
Thanks for that Danl; at last an honest, straight forward opinion. I really appreciate it.
I must admit I am intrigued by all this and am hoping to gain a bit more knowledge in my search. I can remember 10 years or so ago I went on a bread boarding campaign that lasted for months and I put together at least 4 or 5 different set amps with different output tubes. They were all different designs then with different power supplies and at that time I thought they all sounded different; I assumed it was because of the output tubes, that each one had it's own signature sound. Lately I am not so sure. The fact that I have been using a very similar power supply and the same opts for different amps and they sound similar in many ways has me puzzled. The one that really threw me was when I ran an el84 in triode mode as an se amp and could not tell that much difference when I AB'd it with another of my se amps. I hope to find the answer before I am done. Perhaps my older ears are playing tricks on me; that is one thing I will have to check out before I am finished.
Thanks again for your honest reply; I obviously still have some research to do.
Edits: 02/23/15
If you cannot tell the different between a triode wired EL84 amp vs a true triode single ended amp, I think there is something wrong with your system.
One question; have you done the experiment I have described? That is use the same psu and opts and just tweak the voltages to fit the output tube you are using, then try another output tube in se mode. If you haven't, I suggest you do so. I think you will be surprised by how similar they sound.
About three years ago, I came up the conclusion about power supply, it is heavy, it is expansive to build. it is difficult to get good parts. another question is why everyone time I build something, I have to build a power supply.
Here is my solution, I built a mono block power supply, each has two rectifier tubes // together, it is tube voltage regulated, it allows me to adjust the B+ range from 260V to 450V, capable to handle 250ma current draw each. Each block has a multiple filament voltage selection; 2.5v, 4v, 5v. two 6.3v. of course the whole thing is heavy as hell.
Now every time when I build something, I just need to concern on the signal section, from SET to PP, I can use the same power supply.
Ok to answer your question, I have one pair of SET, accept 300b and PX25 tube, the output tube socket is from Yamamoto which accept two different tubes, as a result I use same driver tubes, same b+, I can plug two different output tubes by flipping the a switch, change the output tube's cathode resistor. Of course, another switch to change the filament voltage as well.
Under this circumstance, driver tubes are identical, same OPT, even B+ is identical, only difference is the output tube, one is WE reissue 300b, one is vintage Osram PX25, the operation point of both tubes are very similar but the sound is so different, two different character.
attached is my system, at the back is the power supply, it has a umbilical cord to the signal section.
I am curious; is it the fact that it is voltage regulated that allows you to adjust the B+? I really am thinking about doing the modular thing for my next project and adjustable B+ would be very desirable.
Funny you should mention that......
several years ago I thought about making modular components for amp building; psu, opts, drivers, etc. I was thinking of the ease of trying different amps.
I never did get around to trying it, but your post has me fired up again for several reasons.
As you say, it wouldn't be portable, but it might be worth it for the results. Nice work on your diy components, they look great.
I appreciate the info on your experience. It appears I am going to have to dig deeper to find out why I am not hearing a large difference as several people are now saying they did under similar conditions as mine. I would suspect my hearing except for the fact that my wife could not hear much difference between them either and she is younger than me. Could have something to do with my listening environment as it is in a large room with concrete floor and block walls. Will have to check into that too i guess.
BTW, what are those great looking speakers you have there?
Edits: 02/24/15
Vinnie,
What is night and day to someone might not be to you. In all my years in audio and I listened to a great deal of things over the years in every aspect of the hobby. I have heard differences where others have said it was night and day and to me it was there but not night and day. I can't say what they hear but I can say what I hear and I think I am pretty good at listening critically and casually.
My friend came over and rearranged my room to fit his taste. I thought it sucked but he liked it better than what I had. I put everything back the way I had it and it was back to my taste. Same stuff, different placement(mainly speakers and wires) and it all changed for him, the better, and for me the worse.
So for someone to say that because you don't hear something, to me is not a correct statement. You hear or don't hear what someone else hears or doesn't hear. You say tomato(long "a"), I say tomato(short "a"). Who's right? You decide. Not someone else.
I do believe that is the situation I am dealing with in my case. I think I am going to stop worrying about it and build the best psu I can and then use it to decide what tubes sound the best to me.
Plain and simple! The "best" power supply is one that works and is reliable. Nothing more! Nothing less!
After you get it to work then play with parts and things that might affect the sound(caps, resistors). But just get it to work first. You might just find that the plain and simple is what you were looking for.
this is one thing I'll suggest you, build a "universal" power supply.
I used the same chassis from China for my amps that were built by a friend. I like their look. Only issue I had was the amount of time they took to get here to the U.S. If I ever use them again I will order them almost 6-8 months ahead of time.
I designed and built a SE amp that would
take anything from a 6L6GC to KT88.
I tried them all and like the Genelex 6L6GC
and TungSol KT66 best of all (see link).
DanL
I have been to Dan's house and personally heard his system. It is quite good and for the money he spent, he's got a huge winner. I don't think spending that much more on any one aspect of his amp or preamp would he get the kind of result that might justify the expense. I know most of you know Dan only through the Asylum and his postings. I know a lot of you are but I can say from personal experience he is a real knowledgeable person that does know what he is talking about. His disputes with others are well taken as others make good points but all I can say is that I built a few of his ideas and I have been nothing less than happy with everything he has helped me with and has created for me.
Now you can pay for this testimonial Dan(LOL). You are truly a good guy and a real mench for the hobby.(mench is a Yiddush term meaning good person, just all good things to be said about somebody).
Now for the $64k question...... did you find that they sounded similar in many respects or did you find major differences between them. Also, did you do any A/B testing against other SE amps at the same time?
Opps, just read your attachment. Have you tried this experiment with triodes? I am curious if your results would be similar.
Edits: 02/24/15 02/24/15
Vinnie
I barely had enough money for that amp.
I have a wine taste on a beer budget.
I had a PP EL34 amp at the time and
I never played it again after heard this.
Soon sold it because I was spoiled by SE.
I dream someday of a 300B or 845 build ...
I have designed many for others
but never built one for me.
DanL
Sounds like our budget constraints are similar. That's why i am always trying to get more info on the best place to spend what little I have to play with.
I think you would like the 300B. Even when I only had 125ese opts on it mine sounded good. Now on the bread boarded 91A I have sprung for some better chokes (Hammond 300mA units) and filter caps (obbligato) and I have a pair of magnequest FS030's on it. Best amp I have been able to put together so far.
You could build a 300B for not a lot of money using JJ 300B's (I really like mine), 125ese's and military surplus iron from some hamfests. The 91A in SP issue 1 is a great unit. I used psud2 to come up with a different power supply that seems to work better though.
As I said, the differences I hear are not large, but they are there. It just depends on how much money you want to spend chasing that last 5%.
Edits: 02/24/15 02/24/15
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/21/218685.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/24/241094.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/21/214863.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/6/69868.html
DanL
Thanks Danl!
If you happen to be lured into drlowmu's "windowless van" make sure the back doors stay open at all times.
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