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In Reply to: RE: LOL !!!!! posted by cpotl on August 12, 2014 at 21:32:27
You keep throwing numbers which in reality have NO meaning, at least not without defining the limits of human resolution. How much distortion is audible, how mucj ld deviation in frequency response...., etc., etc.
Your attempt to bowl over readers with undefinable parameters (the numbers you give), is meaningless, totally so.
Your assertions need proof, the same you ask for. But simply from anectdotal experiences, you seem to be mistaken.
Of courseYMMV
Follow Ups:
"You keep throwing numbers which in reality have NO meaning, at least not without defining the limits of human resolution. How much distortion is audible, how mucj ld deviation in frequency response...., etc., etc.
Your attempt to bowl over readers with undefinable parameters (the numbers you give), is meaningless, totally so."
On the contrary, I think it was you who first started introducing numbers in this thread, in your post headed "You forgot the obvious," in which you quoted figures about the relative conductivity of silver versus copper. Cleantimestream then followed up on that, first with another figure for the relative conductivity, and then with figures for the relative magnetic susceptibilities for the two metals.
Since you and he seemed to be proposing that these figures were of significance for the discussion in hand, I then tried to respond to that suggestion.
Chris
You wrote there is no measureable effect befween silver and copper. I merely responded but I did not say resistivity was the cause of any perceived difference. In fact I made a short list of parametets which have affected sound IMHE.
The truth is, intellectualizing about wires, without really understanding all possibilities is not truth in any form.
"You wrote there is no measureable effect befween silver and copper. I merely responded but I did not say resistivity was the cause of any perceived difference. In fact I made a short list of parametets which have affected sound IMHE."
Well, your post with the leading sentence "You forgot the obvious, silver's resistance is about 6% less than copper (or was it 4%)" [First four words in the Subject line] certainly gave the impression that you considered it to be of significance. And I didn't say that there would be no measurable difference; I said that any measured difference would be
negligible and of no significance (as far as the human ear is concerned).
By the way, in your previous comment, you said "Your attempt to bowl over readers with undefinable parameters (the numbers you give), is meaningless, totally so." The numbers I gave, I believe, were the relative permeability of copper and silver, the estimated resistance of the wire in the DAC, and the estimated input impedance of the amplifier. In what sense are they "undefinable"? In what sense "meaningless"?
Anyway, if you are now saying that the relative conductivities is not, in your opinion, a significant factor, then we can at least agree on that one.
But you surely must have *some* physical mechanism or mechanisms in mind for how the various parameters you previously listed might be affecting the sound?
Cleantimestream, for example, has asserted that the different magnetic properties of copper versus silver are an important consideration when discussing the comparitive audio properties of the two wires. I cannot think of any plausible phenomenon along these lines that could conceivably make an audible difference, but I'm happy to wait and hear his proposed explanation before commenting further on that one.
But if you can propose a characteristic in the sound that you think will depend upon the physical properties of the two different connecting wires, then we can maybe discuss whether it is likely to be within the limits of human resolution. That is, I think, what you were asking for?
Chris
aren't you. Better to just leave it as "I haven't tried it but it can't be so." As an opinion it becomes unassailable. Trying to make it a fact simply exposes your lack of knowledge on certain electrical parameters , the minimum which includes magnetic fields.
BTW, you do know that every AC signal generates a magnetic and electric field, right? Again, not saying that it is the only important parameter.
Again bear in mind the OP was changing out the volume control to a DACT ladder pot. He wished to maximize the performance. Even if subtle at best, as deemed by you and some others, a pot is a pot is a pot by your logic. It all simply changes resistance, so you should have jumped on the fact that a pot change would do little to change the sound....at least in your world,
Is your post supposed to be logically related to what I said? I think you must have missed the point somewhere here.
Chris
NOT at all. You claimed that there would be no measurable differences. However you did not state what measurements you were referring to. There are a lot of measurements which can be made.
QED.
"NOT at all. You claimed that there would be no measurable differences."
No, I said
"I doubt very much that the change from copper to silver wire would have any measurable effect of any significance, and I am quite sure it would be undetectable in rigorous double-blind testing."
I inserted the phrase "of any significance" for precisely the reason that I was not asserting there would be literally no measurable differences. Rather, I was saying that there would be no differences that would be of sufficient magnitude, or significance, to be relevant to the discussion of audibility to the human ear.
Chris
better to change your position to I haven't tried it but it can't be true.
That way no one can dispute your opinion.
and with that, I find it of no use to continue this thread with you. You can believe what you want to, and that is fine with me. But please to do not try to impose your opinion on everyone else.
Cpotl,You have to keep in mind here that UncleStu is an avid believer in extreme tweaks. Just look at his posts over on the tweakers (magic pebbles) forum.
He is also the one here who argued with me years ago that he could hear the difference between using the red insulated wire over the black insulated wire in common Romex house wiring, meaning he could hear the color of the AC power cable insulation. Now how do you reason EE theory with that train of thought.
I also applaud your logic above with Cleanstream. You have put forth some mathematics to uphold your understanding or possibly a mis-understanding of the technology in discussion. All Cleanstream has posted is links to university course pages.
Pretty clear to me who the real EE's are on this forum.
Edits: 08/13/14
I guess you haven't tried it, then. So be it.
I have and noted a considerable difference. I also notice a lot of manufacturers are also following suit. As one manufacturer wrote back, he had to purchase a $100K real time analyzer (one of five in the world at that time) to measure what everyone in his test lab could hear in 30 seconds. But no matter. I post what I hear and determine and if you don't like it, just ignore it. It ain't no skin off my back.
I thought that was pretty much debunked here years ago. I guess not in your case.
well not to you apparently, but personally I really don't care. Yeah it ain't in IEC or UL or Bema or IEEE journals, and I have actually additional confirmation on the university research level, but hell if i'm going to bother with you. You have already made up your mind., despite John Curl's publishing the belden cable test results....or did you forget that?
I too am aware of John Curl and his Bybee ramblings. He has no credibility with me either.
Edits: 08/16/14 08/16/14
John Curl. Hahahahahaha.
You should read some of his Bybee threads on DiyAudio.
-Henry
"I have and noted a considerable difference."Then if someone changed 2" of red wire to black on one channel of your stereo you should be able to tell which one without knowing, right?
And if this person did this every day for 20 days you should be able to tell, correctly each time, which side he messed with?
Unless or until you have successfully done so there's nothing to prove to me that you're not just fooling yourself.
"I guess you haven't tried it, then."
What if I did and claim to hear what you hear, or claim not to hear what you hear?
Who's to say I'm not just fooling myself?
Either one of us needs to prove it before we start making claims.
I mean, red, black, green...I use all colors in my builds and they all sound great to me....but what the hell do I know?
BTW It ain't no skin off my back.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/13/14
and if only one channel is changed I can tell within seconds and have done so on numerous occasions (used to sponsor an audio club and we used to do things like DBT a lot).
Its a lot like absolute polarity, which can hear it within seconds, usually within 30 secs. I don't claim better hearing than anyone, because I have stated many times, it took me a decade to understand it and to be able to recognize it.
Again another pretty simple example, can you hear the change in ends of your interconnects. That's about an inch of connector. Again, why not use a steel connector?
I'd like to see your score sheets from those DBTs and a full disclosure of how the tests were done.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"and if only one channel is changed I can tell within seconds and have done so on numerous occasions (used to sponsor an audio club and we used to do things like DBT a lot).
Its a lot like absolute polarity, which can hear it within seconds, usually within 30 secs. I don't claim better hearing than anyone, because I have stated many times, it took me a decade to understand it and to be able to recognize it."I became curious, and looked up some of the other things you claim to hear. I was struck by this one, on the "tweakers' forum":
"In playing with the Alexandrite. I am building a flashing LED circuit.
Very simple: resistor inline with the LED and then hooked up to a battery (I am awaiting some AC power supplies).
The curious thing I once I turn the circuit on even without any crystals nearby I hear an improvement in my system. Background becomes quieter and more fine detail becomes evident. Dynamics improve and sound from top through bottom becomes "tighter" for lack of a better word."In reply to another fellow traveller, you then added:
"I use the diodes in pairs. Anywhere in tbe listening room makes a difference. but i like to place them close to indicator LEDs in components. You can often solder them in parallel to existing LEDs. If your component has a low voltage PS ,you can piggy back tbe flashing u.units off of it. On mYDAC it increases bass and actually lowers the noise floor."
Are we supposed to take any of this stuff seriously? Do you take it seriously? I mean, do you actually believe any of it, or are you just dreaming up outlandish and ridiculous claims in order to wind people up? Why should we believe anything you report hearing, when some of the things you report are such manifest nonsense?
Chris
[PS: Sorry, accidentally hit the "post" button too soon! I've edited the rest of it in.]
Edits: 08/16/14 08/16/14 08/16/14 08/16/14 08/16/14 08/17/14
I would have proposed a similar test. Someone changes or NOT, a critical interconnect and the system owner says 'original' or 'modified' each day when they come in.
Based on reasonable statistical technique, you should be able to tell in 20 trials.
Too much is never enough
Yes, that is my point.
My apologies for mixing, copper vs. silver (that's what most of this thread have been about) and red insulation vs. black, but I hope my point is still understood.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hi Gusser,Thanks! Yes, it is an uphill struggle with some of these guys.
The debate with cleantimestream is hampered by the fact that he simply won't define terms, and won't attempt to explain his argument, resorting instead to bluster and insults. The key question, really, is what does one mean by "how magnetic" a non-permanently magnetised material like copper or silver is? I think a reasonable definition, and I suspect the one that he really might have in mind too, is the magnetisation M induced by putting the object in an external magnetic field. It is the quantity that measures how much the substance is reacting to the external field; how much it is being affected by the external field.
But then, it is clear that the one with the greater strength of magnetisation is the one whose absolute value of susceptibility is larger. I think he is getting confused by the fact that the objects here are diamagnetic, and so the susceptiblities are negative. I think maybe he has somehow decided that because they are negative, he should turn the ratio upside down...
But if he would only (a) give his definition of "magneticness", and (b) present his calculation, it would all become instantly clear.
Oh well...
Chris
Edits: 08/14/14
to simplify this.
in the units being discussed:
negative numbers going away from zero are diamagnetic and are repelled by a magnet. the larger the negative number, the more the magnetic field has an effect.
zero represents no effect by a magnetic field (an ideal vacuum)
positive numbers represent paramagnetic which are attracted to magnetic fields.
therefore the larger the number on either side of zero, the more effect the magnetic field has.
I would love to see some documentation on what the net result of this effect is in conductors.
dave
Hi Dave,
Absolutely! Nicely summarised.
Chris
Yes, thanks Dave.
Even I understood that. :-)
But, as Dave asked, what difference does it make in a wire's ability to conduct audio signal?
That's the question!
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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