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In Reply to: RE: OT Bedroom System posted by danlaudionut on July 31, 2014 at 08:19:19
Dan,
I know in the past may speaker designers would put together a system usually listening to it once or twice and maybe liking what they heard(maybe not) but because of financial expenditures in designing(R and D if you will) they might have marketed the speaker before its' time. In other words, before it was totally done. Money before quality.
Another issue was that a speaker designer might go to the computer to get the crossover for the speaker and it spit out maybe one but also maybe a few options for a crossover and after listening you decide. Most never listened. They just put in because the computer said it was right. But who wrote the program for the computer? You? Me? Another? So who says we are right. Who says a totally flat response is right. Maybe a bump, a dip, a this, a that is right.
Look at what you did. You inadvertently changed some operating point or parts quality to get a better result, to your ears(which I trust implicitly by the way). Anyway! Going back to the original design the parameters might be a bit off from the original resulting in a better sound. Again, to your ears.
Another aspect to consider is the drivers. When the speaker was built the drivers used were "X". What happened if "X" wasn't available and they used a different version of "X" or for that matter a "Y" driver and just stuffed it in a box using the same crossover. That could also be where the sonics could be compromised.
Now for the last scenario. Elliot from Zalytron was a speaker builder and parts seller. He very rarely ever cared to listen to what he built. I asked him how he could tell if what he built was correct. His answer? Joe D'Appolito designed his crossovers. But how? On a computer and because it was Joe and the computer said to do something it was right. Joe never listened to anything he designed for Elliot. Yes maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. The computer is supposed to be a tool(as in PSU II) to get you in the right direction. The rest is your ear but how do you know if it is never listened to until it gets to the consumer.
You probably had an idea and it worked. Good for you!
Follow Ups:
Paul
I didn't change the crossover much - less than 5%.
Main thing replaced cheap with quality.
DanL
Dan,
Through a couple of speaker builders I have run into, any change in anything in a crossover changes the crossover no matter how slight. It was told to me that even if you change out parts of the exact value it really might not be exact so what you might've done was in fact change the crossover. For the better or worse, you decide. That is what listening is all about.
You are much more qualified than me to know but this is what I was told.
"... sometimes you have to shoot the engineer and pry the plans from his cold, dead hands." :^)
Yeah, I'm an engineer but I appreciate that it's an inherent conflict - a good engineer is never done improving a design, vs. management who can't pay the engineer before they have something to sell.
The point about changing components is well taken, and under-appreciated! We (small manufacturers) usually do not know when the product has been revised, it has the same model number so it takes luck and attentiveness to detect a change.
Paul,
Can the wheel be reinvented? Sometimes one has to know when to leave well enough alone but again, no revision, no job.
In my business they engineers redesigned a sprinkler clock about 4 times and ruined the thing. They had a good product initially and thought they were taking it to other levels. Were they wrong! he entire industry stopped buying it until they came back with the original one.
Audio Research is a company know for reinventing the wheel. As you are paying for a new amp or preamp at the store they are already sending you a card for upgrading. I bought an amp a few years back new from them and they sent me an upgrade letter within 5 days.
During the year or so that I had an infatuation with their Dual 50 amplifier, it went from Dual 50 to Dual 50A, then all the way to "Dual 50F1B". Some of those versions along the way were like hand grenades, safe only when unplugged. I knew nothing about circuitry back then, but I later learned that the tubes were being worked hard, too hard in some cases. Yet I had a friend who dutifully sent his unit back to Minnesota for each new iteration. I had no idea AR still did that; I doubt they could get away with it to the degree that they did back then, when Harry Pearson was their Pied Piper.
Trying to make it "better" ...
DanL
I'm sure you did. Big Bang was funny!
Paul,
Point taken! Focal was known for changing up things in an effort for improvement but I would think they would tell a designer when this is done.
There was a tech(who is now not with us)Frank Luscher that built all his speaker crossovers of the same drivers with different components and values. Reason? In his eyes no two "exact" drivers are in fact exact and neither was the cabinet. He listened to every speaker he built and made changes accordingly. This was some time back in years. No two speaker crossovers were ever the same. There was always this tweak or that based on drivers and cabinets(different density and weight). He measured and listened to everything he built and modified accordingly. It took a long time to get one of his speaker systems but was it worth it? Most said it was but that might be to justify the wait. I always felt it was over the top but if he liked his work then he can't complain.
I think in reality this hobby is full of crazies, but good crazies. They have fun in building and so do I but I have more fun just plugging in and listening, mainly to what I built. But I never get involved in speaker design. Leave that for the other crazies(ha ha).
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