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8.19.13.27
In Reply to: RE: Out of contex - again! posted by gusser on January 28, 2013 at 11:50:46
I looked through his site and I don't see anything about teflon tube sockets or PC boards sounding different. Now he does have an excellent article on capacitor dielectrics which I find no fault with at all.But we aren't talking about the sound of different capacitors here are we?
Now before you jump in and try and educate me as to the capacitance between tube socket pins and traces on a PC board, I certainly understand that. Of course there is a measurable capacitance difference between G10 and teflon, between ceramic, phenolic, miconol, and teflon.
But what exactly is that difference in farads and what influence does it have on a typical audio circuit. To be clear I am not saying it doesn't exist. I am asking what audible influence the difference makes based on the signal to noise ratio of the circuit?
Edits: 01/28/13 01/28/13Follow Ups:
"But what exactly is that difference in farads and what influence does it have on a typical audio circuit. To be clear I am not saying it doesn't exist. I am asking what audible influence the difference makes based on the signal to noise ratio of the circuit?"
That is the question for all time in audio, isn't it? There it is all in the believability of short or long term impressions. I know wiring makes only a small difference, but I believe it does make a difference. And believe me, people can hear signal to nearly -30dB down in random noise. It's another posting of mine long ago why I think 24 bits sounds better over dithered 16 bits.
If you want to "prove" two things are the same, do DBT's. Proving a difference is equally impossible in small shifts of timbre and time domain performance.
If you refuse to believe that you can hear this small change that often disappears right after using it, that's not a bad position to be in. If you believe in the change occurring but realize the effect is measurably very small, that is another good position. Just as long as we now understand ourselves to be doing one or the other.
But blanket statements for all that we just can't have an audible effect is insulting my intelligence. That PIM occurs only at microwave frequencies and not baseband is just one such example people misinterpret the truth about the real world.
Does skin effect occur at 10hz?
YES it does.
Now show me an application in the history of electrical engineering where it makes any difference.
So is myself or anyone saying skin effect at 10hz is nil wrong?
Note that in the first post you took exception to I did not say teflon has NO effect on audio circuits. I said the effect was NIL.
BTW "nil" is a widely used engineering term. I have seen it used in many papers and PE reports.
Do you know what "parameter"' he is measuring in his scope traces? He refers to the less than perfect traces as symptomatic of "hysteresis" but of what? It seems to be voltage coef of cap but he never states this. If it is, is it sonically significant? The ceramic caps come out bad but what type did he test: NP0? Z5U? etc. You're not curious about his conclusion that the PIO caps that he happened to be evaluating for a client "test" and sound best. Or have his cap test pages changed since I last checked? Or did I miss it?
I have no fault with the idea that dielectrics can make measurable differences in capacitors.
...But what in the world is Bench measuring and are his specific conclusions valid?
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