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In doing a filament supply for a 50 I found the toroid I had on hand wasn't giving enough voltage for the filter I was using so it was time to subject it to the knife.
Once inside a new lead could be attached to one side in the form of about 20 feet of magnet wire (regular insulated wire will work also)
Then the lead can be wrapped around the core to get the needed results.
I'll call the end result close enough for government work.
Follow Ups:
I knew a TV repair man who would do this very often even with EI transformers, primarily flyback transformers. As the TV tubes died, you could gain time by increasing the B+ and he would wind extra turns onto the transformer to increase the B+ voltage. Wouldn't last long as the tube was the culprit, but it would give some time for the owners to save up for a new tube or TV set.
Stu
PS: got a chance to work with your transformer volume control. Really nice work: I noticed immediately your use of the brass mounting hardware and the brass screw to hold the lams together. Way ahead of the discussion on Tweaks.
Stu
What was done to get more life out of CRT's was to increase the filament voltage of the CRT only. Not the B+ as that would throw the whole TV set out of tolerance, specifically the deflection systems which are rather critical.There were actually "TV Brightner" products sold at common department stores in the 1960s that the end use would insert in series with the CRT base connector. It was just an auto transformer that boosted the filament voltage to around 9 volts.
Now for all you magic hookup wire gurus, let's look at an area of electronics where a few more inches of hookup wire can make a significant difference. The CRT cathodes are high impedance in most TV circuits and so must be the final video amplifier stage. So adding a foot of wire to the CRT base no doubt softened the picture due to the increased capacitance. However as the tube was already soft due to the aged cathode, you probably didn't notice it. Note that grid drive was even worse but many broadcast monitors did use grid drive for better linearity but now using PP video output amplifiers.
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12 04/23/12
Dave,
Will you be wrapping this with mylar and shrink wrapping when done?
I've had to re-terminate lead outs at the magnet wire on a few toroid output transformers....and rewrapping them with the old mylar proved to be less than successful.
I just covered it with 3M #56 tape.
dave
Any reason why you didn't use TCSS?
:-)
Very clean job, all kidding aside.
Actually,
since you mention it, I did actually use a double run of TCSS (unfortunately balck) on a permalloy choke input choke for the B+ of the same 50 amp. The wire was #37 bondcoat and needed to be baked at 350 degrees to set. At those temperatures the teflon insulation stays in place where PVC insulation tends to fall off the wire. The parallel runs also have a valid reason. Since it was a dual bay bobbin there were two starts of #37 wire hence the need for two leadouts. If i would have had #34 bondable wire on hand I would have used a single TCSS leadout but you gotta work with what you have on hand.
dave
Didn't they measure the negative effects of black insulation at Kimber?
It had something to do with the carbon pigment in the insulation.
Notice how the single black wire on this Magnaquest OPT was replaced by a dual leadout of white TCCS.
If Fraker and Medwin are doing this to their OPT leadouts, there must be a valid reason for it.
Even Magnaquest offers leadout modifications for their customers now.
there is a rumor that Kimber has measured some effect but in order for that effect to be labeled positive or negative would require a person to hear it and judge the results based on their application. There are very few (if any) universal things in this hobby and one man's positive is inevitably another mans negative.
I prefer to collect my own data and form my own opinions and really don't give a hoot about what others are alleged to say.
dave
Ray Kimber told me that he had to buy a Rhode and Scwartz real time analyzer which cost him $100K to verify what one could hear in 15 seconds. But YMMV,
Stu
People who make a living selling wire on the premise that it makes an audible difference have a vested interest in promoting the belief that they can easily hear these differences. Given the information in this thread, there is insufficient proif that what Kimber thought he heard and what he claims to have measured bear any relation to one another. This is not to say that black wires don't sound different, but only that a higher standard of proof is needed to settle the matter.
-Henry
Technology is but a servant!
Cheers Henry
There is nothing on the Kimber site that says anything about negative effects of black wire.
Also if such data existed don't you think the respectable research universities would be behind it?
This is good enough for me.
Jeff Medwin
No, you show me the money. I want to see test data as that's where the money is.A small niche cable company buys a $100K piece of test equipment to specifically test "black wire" then publishes absolutely no data of the test?
Quote bu unclestu:
"You can readily hear this effect in power cables also. Euro color coding has brown, blue, green in lieu of the US black, white, green combo. The same manufacturer's Euro power cords have noticeably more top end than the US models ( I've done listening tests using Belden and Dale tech power cords). I have found in Home depot ( only once, though) a power cable using, in lieu of black insulation, a white wire with a black outer coating: it did sound better than the normal wire.In fact, I have experimented with using four wire Romex in place of the standard three wire. The fourth wire adds a red strand which is normally coded for a switched outlet. Using the red wire in place of the black again significantly opens up the top end and adds a layer of transparency that the black wire readily disguises."
No electronics professional is going to buy into this garbage!
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12
Why should a commercially viable company with many competitors even bother to spend $100 grand and then announce their findings to all their competition? Why should they even bother to tell their competitors their "secrets"? Do they have any obligation to do so?
Yeah, so electronic "professionals" are not going to buy their results. So what? Are they even buying their products in the first place? Do they even consider wires to have "sound"? Do they even own a piece of gear with that kind of sensitivity (or even work at a lab that has one?).
But then being a "professional", I am certain that you need not even experiment. Your all mighty great intellect has already rejected the possibility because you never learned this any textbook you have read. That's fine by me. But if you haven't tried it I do not believe you have any basis for your opinion, and that is simply what it is: an opinion, not verified by any facts. BTW, the Rhode and Schwartz real time analyzer Kimber bought was necessary because the more inexpensive and cheaper real time analyzers did not have sufficient resolution to examine the theoretical underp[innings of the conductive insulation. Since you are so hyped on "scientific" verification and publication, why don't you purchase the equipment and verify what was discovered?
Stu
I have a crapie Coby TV in my kitchen. It's connected to the cable splitter via a WHITE coaxial cable. The picture is terrible - "snowy", like in the "good old days" of TV antennas when the station was too far away and the signal level low. It is an analog signal, by the way (not HD). So I moved the TV into the den, where there is a BLACK cable connected to the same splitter, of about the same length as the white cable. Guess what - magically, the picture is vastly improved when using the BLACK cable!So does this "prove" that a black colored cable is superior to a WHITE one? They are both "75 Ohm" cable, by the way.
Any reasonable person (even non engineers) would claim that there is insufficent information to answer that question. But I can claim that "see, black cable is better". After all, it was in my "experiment". And the difference is very obvious.
For what it's worth, it's not that terribly unusual for a company to spend $100K or more for a test instrument. A lot of high accuracy, very high frequency (26 GHz and above) test equipment will cost over 100K (new). Rhode and Swartz makes very high quality test instrumentation, but they are ungodly expensive.
Edits: 04/24/12
Is the coax an RG 6 or RG52? Makes a big difference both are 75 ohm but have very different shielding characteristics. In my experiments I went out of my way to insure that the wires compared were not only from the same manufacturer but built in the same way.
Have you checked your coax? The RG-6 has a foil shield in addition to the braid.
Stu
To be honest, I have no idea what style of cable the mysterious white coaxial cable is. It's some cheap brand form Menards (the poor mans version of Home Depot and Lowes). It's intended for TV, so I assume that it's 75 Ohms. Obviously high loss! Unfortunately, it's now behind drywall, so it's going to be a pain to replace.
I meant RG-59. Both RG-59 and RG-6 are identical in terms of the internal; conductor, both are 50 ohm cable, actually, and both look identical on the exterior even in terms of dimensions.
In my neck of the woods RG-59 was the de facto video coax until about 15 years or so ago. The leakage with the 85% shielding was deemed excessive for higher video quality and especially for usage for computer data. Again the RG-6 has 100% shielding making it a far superior cable for both data and video.
Stu
QUOTE
I meant RG-59. Both RG-59 and RG-6 are identical in terms of the internal; conductor, both are 50 ohm cable, actually, and both look identical on the exterior even in terms of dimensions.In my neck of the woods RG-59 was the de facto video coax until about 15 years or so ago. The leakage with the 85% shielding was deemed excessive for higher video quality and especially for usage for computer data. Again the RG-6 has 100% shielding making it a far superior cable for both data and video.
END QUOTERG59 has a diameter of approx 0.25in. RG6 has a diameter of approx 0.318in. And they are both 75 ohms. - Look it up.
RG6 also has different center conductors, pure copper for base and video and copper plated steel for RF, specifically for CATV drops. The steel is needed for strength and the copper plating is fine for RF. There are also many differenet shields from braid, foil, and combinations of both.
As for the applications you list it's just more cowboy logic. "Thinnet" Ethernet uses RG58 which is a 50ohm single braid shield. ARCNET uses RG62 which is 93ohm again with a single braid shield.
Edits: 04/30/12 04/30/12 04/30/12 04/30/12
Yes, you are correct - RG59 is 75 Ohms and has been around for nearly as long as I have. Actually, the cable that works well is some 40 plus year old RG59/U. It's the new cheap crap from China that (apparantly) has very high loss. The cable company used a much larger diameter 75 Ohm cabel to connect to the cabel modem.
Whenever these audiophile claims by manufactures are put before professional review we always hear the "proprietary information" rag.Tell me if Ford makes a car that they claim gets 100mpg and demonstrates it, how is that proprietary information? They aren't telling anyone HOW they are doing it, just that it can do it and here is the proof. It is that proof that will sell cars. Without it, it;s just another unsubstantiated claim.
You already publicized that black wire is poor for audio work. You have also publicized Kimber has determined this as well. So all any manufacture has to do is not use black wire and they have the same competitive advantage as any other who follows your claim. How does a published traceable test report from Kimber put them at a disadvantage? We already know not to buy black wire from anyone so where's the damage from publishing why?
Now let's say Kimber develops black wire installation that does not have the issues you/they claim. They run standard accepted tests against other wire manufactures and any engineer can see the benefits of the Kimber black wire. That's not divulging proprietary information at all. It's in fact advertising a superior product they make.
Even if there is no solution to the black wire problem, if Kimber publishes scientific proof it exists, they reap the professional recognition for the discovery. You think that has no value, especially in the audiophile press?
The truth is this is not proprietary information at all. It's just hogwash and Kimber knows it. Anything they can show with test equipment is probably so far down in the grass it has no merit whatsoever.
P.S. Do you really think Kimber has better lab equipment than Belden or Commscope not to mention other major wire manufactures? Now I'm LOL!
P.S#2 - And Kimber does not MAKE any wire. They just braid it.
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12 04/23/12 04/23/12
And you are dead wrong in thinking that.
Kimber never revealed anything about the insulation having an effect on the sound. It was back in 1990 or 1991 that Stan Warren revealed that information to me. I had my own audio shop back then and slowly revealed that information to my manufacturers, Kimber being one of them. It wasn't until I placed a sample of the PBJ custom made in my color choice into Ray Kimber's hands that he investigated the phenomenon: this was at a CES I'd say in the mid to late 90's: 1995 or thereabouts.
It was my postings that revealed the effect of black insulation and that was after numerous experiments on my parts to verify the effect, including buying custom power cords from Daletech who also offered them in a Euro and US color code. Their buyer revealed that both cords were made by the same manufacturer in identical gauges but different insulation color.
He was stunned at the difference sonically, particularly as I was using wire drawn at his factory with his solder and his ends. The difference was not subtle.
Do a minimum of research. Look up the price of that Rhode and Schwartz real time analyzer. The model number is posted on the Kimber website. Investigate how many were made. Now at the time of purchase five were in use worldwide. NASA had one, Bureau of Standards had one. One European scientific organization had one (CERN?,possibly, but I forget).
And for your foolish statements, which indicate the depth of your ignorance, Ray Kimber is 50% owner of a wire manufacturer which draws its own wire. He thus can have custom dies made up for his specific use. In fact try drawing an oval cross sectional wire through a die. You can't so without getting a tangled mess. You need a custom made roller to do this... but I'm sure your omnipotent engineering mind already knows this.
Does scientific recognition pay the bills? Was Einstein a millionaire? Id that real time analyzer costs a $100K who the hell foots the bill for verification?
As for Belden, in a discussion on Tweaks about this very same issue, one contributor, John Curl, pointed out that in a Belden chart of wire characteristics they graph two very different performance specs, one for black insulation and one for white.
Doh!.....
You sound exactly like the patent examiner in the 18oo's who proclaimed the patent office should close down because everything important had already been invented....
Now, for your part, have you even bothered to try what I have done? Or is this simply an intellectual exercise for you? If you haven't tried it, then you must be the wisest man in the world, God like in your omnipotence.
Stu
All we have is your version of this. There is no mention on Kimbers or Beldens site regarding problems with black wire insulation.Your account of power cords insulation color having a sonic effect at the top of the audio band is preposterous. Why would anyone invest the time and effort to test that.
Like I have said many times before. Why are these ground breaking claims of electronic theory always limited to "high end audio"? With all the high speed computer technologies and the now commodity GHZ based devices such as WiFi modems and cell phones are none of these wire theories utilized? Point me to one accredited paper that has stood up to peer review.
You are all hung up over this RTA. Well what exactly did it show. What electrical parameter(s) did black insulation influence? What were the frequencies used, the rise times, etc? A hate to tell you but your ear is not a calibrated measurement device. A valuable tool, yes. But not just by it's self.
A Belden discussion on Tweaks? Wow? What does Belden themselves have to say. I happen know what Steve Lamphen thinks about "audiophile wire". Research that!
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12
mean nothing if they are not audible. The effect was first noted and then a search was made for causality. Have you ever looked seriously at cat 6 cables? I notice the Cat 6 cables in my electronics supply house do not have black insulation and the color id bands are limited to colored striping rather than solid color insulation.Now since you demand instrumental proof: Please elucidate the low threshold of audibility for any sonic parameters. Please give me numbers which cover the human threshold of audibility for various audio parameters. Surely with all your reading of technical journals, something must have been written about the limits of human perception, right? In not, then publishing numbers becomes academic at the most, and impossible to qualify in terms of the human experience.
As for your question as to why anyone would invest the time to check it out: well, Stan Warren did, and I did, following up on his report. The causality was not important to Stan, the effect was. The check is relatively simple but I notice you would rather read about it than to experiment, as simple as that experiment would be.
That's fine with me, If you want to be an armchair expert, great, But do not proclaim that because you haven't read anything to prove it that the effect can not exist.
The explanation, since you haven't bothered to check the archives, is simple, black coloration normally has carbon added for the color. Carbon is conductive, although it does have relatively high resistance. Now since you are so learned, what does that tell you?
Think about it, it would be akin to placing a very high resistance in parallel with the copper wire. What does that mean? Again think about it, a high resistance introduces group delay. Think about it again, what does group delay mean when paralleled with a conductor that has relatively little delay? Can you see how a sensitive real time analyzer would be important, or do I have to spell it out for you? Plus group delay would dependent on the frequency and the length of the insulation involved.....
And then you assume, totally incorrectly, that Belden addresses the issue directly. Do a search on the archives for John Curl's post and he posts the Belden graph of cable performance which distinctly shows differences in black and white insulated cable.
Your problem is that you want to sit back and read about things without experimentation. It's all an intellectual exercise for you: to search the net and avoid getting your hands dirty. Taking Stan Warren's Revelation preamp with the rainbow colored computer ribbon cable took only ten minutes of resoldering the black cable in place of the other colored wire and a brief listening to determine that his assessment was correct. I left it in longer to insure everything had time to break in.
At this point, I would say that Stan Warren, the "S" of PS Audio, has about 10^6 times more credibility than you do. But then let us address another more important issue. If YOU believe such things are totally impossible and unimportant, why bother to frequent a forum which actively discusses such factors?
Why not join the ranks of Amar Bose who once proclaimed that any distortion less than 5% was inaudible. That would make pretty much all high end audio products a joke as most claim distortion products well below 0.5%.
Name me one paper that can JUSTIFY having microscopic distortion specs for amplifiers when speakers usually have rates significantly higher.
Oh yeah, tell me that OHFC copper is not used by Belden because it is an audiophile myth....Hmmm, seems to me CAT5e and CAT6 all use OHFC wire, or perhaps, Belden is lying.
Stu
Edits: 04/27/12
So much distorted and mis-information here:1) FYI, CAT1234567 color code is based on standard USOC telephone color coding. There is a black wire, well it's actually dark gray and they call the color "slate". As networking UTP cable only has 4 pairs, they don't reach the black or slate position in the color code. But open up a 25 pair or larger telephone cable. Then you will find the infamous black or slate wire and it's cousins.
2) I am not an MD nor have I studied human hearing thresholds.
3) Who is Stan Warren and where is this "report". May I have a link to it please?
4) Resistors delay a signal? Boy do you need help here. Yes they do, but only to the extent of their physical legnth. And if paralleled with a copper (or other metal) wire, then they simply don't exist at audio frequencies.
Delay lines are made with series inductors and capacitors to ground or whatever the return path is. In fact a delay line model is the same as a coaxial cable. Yes, there's resistance there too. Every analog color TV has a delay line and always did. Your old VCR has a few of them. And if you bother to look at the schematic, it's shown as an inductor. Take one apart and see what's in it.
As a broadcast video design engineer who started in the late 1970s, I know a lot about signal timing. And as RF is a large part of broadcast engineering, don't try to tell me about group delay. I can run rings around you on that. Broadcast engineering also has an audio component and none of these phenomena have any bearing with audio. Audio is dirt simple compared to video systems and RF engineering.
As for Belden, who is this John Curl. Is he on the Belden technical staff? I gather from your post he is not but rather some audiophile that read a Belden spec and mis-interpreted information he did not understand. Again if you have any direct papers from the Belden engineering department (or any other non-audiophile communications wire manufacture) about wire insulation color affecting baseband audio transmission please give us all here a link to it. And who said Belden doesn't use OHFC copper?
It appears from reading between the lines of you latest posts that you are/were a stereo store salesman. Whatever else you may have training in, electrical engineering is not one of those subjects. Your dissertation on "group delay" proves that beyond a doubt. It is however a fine example of "cowboy logic".
Edits: 04/28/12 04/28/12 04/28/12
or non answer speaks volumes.
John Curl? Oh a nobody who designed the very first Mark Levinson Preamp (JC-1, his initials). He is still active in the San Francisco area and was heavily involved in modification (by the factory) for Parasound. Even co authored a seminal article in Audio magazine about the "sound" of capacitors, IIRC. What papers have you written for publication or what products have you designed?
As for your reading comprehension, well, that already speaks volumes in your writing. As for who Stan Warren is, I guess my very brief explanation were not good enough for you....
Look, you are entitled to your beliefs. The world marches on, however, I see no reason why I should create a "scientific" paper to illuminate your thinking. If such a paper is so important to you, by all means, since you have soooo much experience, why not do the research and write a paper yourself to prove that the effect can not exist? Then YOU can make a scientific statement and gain glory.
Stu
Logical Fallacy #37: Argument by appeal to authority.
John Curl is well known on diyAudio for his advocacy of Bybee Quantum Purifiers. On that site there is a 150 page thread where seriously smart people, through measurement, analysis, conjecture, and disassembly tried to come up with any possible evidence or explanation to justify Curl's claims WRT the Quantum Purifier. It's very entertaining reading. The end results:
1) The Quantum Purifier is a resistor in a ceramic tube whose physical effects on the signal are indistinguishable from that of a... resistor.
2) John Curl's reputation as a source of credible scientific information has been reduced to ashes.
See below for a link to the thread and a picture of what's inside a Quantum Purifier.
-Henry
Not being in the esoteric stereo sales business I don't know these "famous" designers.I have two papers published in SMPTE.
"Audio" magazine doesn't impress me at all. Now show me some papers by these guys in the AES journal and I will be!
P.S> I am not asking YOU to WRITE a paper. I am simply asking for a link to the papers you stated were published.
Edits: 04/30/12 04/30/12 04/30/12
It's plausible that there could be measurable differences in the electrical properties of different colored insulation materials. After all, they contain different chemicals. The question is whether or not the difference is significant in audio applications.
As Gusser says, without knowing what was measured and under what conditions, the fact that a $100,000 RF analyzer showed a measurable difference is meaningless.
The objective proof would come from a proper controlled listening test. Since virtually all tweak type subjective differences disappear when evaluated under controlled testing, skeptics have reason to be, well, skeptical.
A positive result in a double blind test is convincing proof that a real difference exists. A negative result does not prove that a difference does not exist. But the burden of proof is still on the claimant to show that the difference is real. Rhetoric to the effect that double blind testing is a flawed methodology is not proof of the validity of subjective tests.
It is incredibly easy to get listeners to hear differences when no difference exists. Just tell them something has changed and they will describe the change. For some reason, proponents of subjective testing never talk about this.
I believe there are meaningful differences to be heard between components, especially when there are good, solid, measurable differences in the components being auditioned. I am extremely skeptical of the validity of any sighted test results that claim to show consistent, major subjective differences between parts when the objective differences are so slight as to be virtually unmeasurable.
-Henry
"It's plausible that there could be measurable differences in the electrical properties of different colored insulation materials. After all, they contain different chemicals. The question is whether or not the difference is significant in audio applications"
I agree with that. The insulation properties certainly can have an effect on the signal transmission. But at audio frequencies and at standard line levels or higher? That I don't buy into. But that's not what Unclestu is saying happened either.
He states the insulation COLOR difference on a power cord made a difference in the high frequency performance of the audio device.
Now that's going too far for me. What's you take on that Henry?
I am one that has a very hard time discerning a difference when comparing/contrasting "Audio shit"....sometimes to extremes.
One of the few times I could "hear a difference" was at a local audio club meet that was held at a re-sellers place.
They were pimping their power conditioning products as well as their $1k+ power cords....and a few other gadgets.
I was definitely in the skeptic camp.
I'm not one to buy into a lot of power conditioning products....and generally speaking not into expensive wire.
They did several tests, none of them "double blind."
Only one test could I hear a difference. It wasn't with installing their power conditioners, or their little nick-nacks.
It was when they swapped power cords. It was immediately obviously different.
I couldn't tell which was better, just that they were different.
I think in the JLH notes or Swensen notes Jeff has kindly put together one of the two described using snubbers on the secondary of the PT and that it would negate much of the difference in power cords.
That was cool for me... hear something, see it described in a somewhat convincing manner...and then solve the problem. I didn't use an expensive power cord on my amp.
At any rate... I think TCSS is reasonably priced for a DIYer. I was of the opinion when building my 2a3 amp that I wouldn't cut any corners...although I couldn't afford silver.
So I used good quality wire...and I did parallel and triple runs of it..and I didn't have the chance to compare one strand vs two, or black insulation vs other colors...but I also know I've got good wire in there, at least "good enough" and I no longer need to worry about it..and can focus on other things, like quality capacitors etc.
It's not difficult at all.TEST#1:
Lets take that 500 watt Fender bass amp described in a thread below. Put an 18ga power cord on it and play a sequence. Now replace that with a 14ga power and play a sequence. Will you hear a difference. I sure hope so!TEST#2:
Set up your audio amp next to a 50kw AM radio tower - like a hundred feet or so. Use a stock power cord and measure for RFI in the DC rails. Now try a shielded power cord or one with ferrite beads attached. Will the RFI be attentuated? Quite possibly there will be a measurable difference. In some cases the difference may even be audible.So what exactly were the conditions of the test where you heard the differences? If there were indeed differences, then a logical technical reason can be determined.
It's not magic! And it doesn't take a $1000 plus solution either. A Belden standard 18ga IEC cord is about $3. A shielded version is about $7.
Edits: 04/24/12
Here's the kicker, HAVE YOU tried comparing a Euro power cord from Belden and compared it to the same gauge US color coded power cord? Your nebulous answers indicate that you have never even bothered to try.
I have tried it, I have tried a specialty medical grade power cord from Daletech (low leakage power cords): I have compared four wire romex using the red lead for the hot line and compared it to the black lead in the same bundle. I have compared Belden hook up wire in various colors also, not to mention trying the various colors available in a computer style ribbon cable.
I have done many blind tests upon unsuspecting customers as to their preference in interconnects containing black wire and those which do not ( from the same factory, too, BTW). Jim Patrick of the now defunct Music Metre wire switched over to a clear and white insulation based on his experimentation and my comments.
Now, I am told, not all black insulation has carbon added. I have not located a source for such insulated wire. Carbon seems to be the ubiquitous choice for black coloration. In fact with my Fluke 87 I can measure a very high resistance in black insulation not present, say, in white insulation.
But really, I don't owe you anything. If you don't believe, let's let rest at that. My posting of the issue of black insulation was based on my attempt to further advance sound quality. After all, a colored insulation costs no more than black. It is a cheap tweak and one which is easily implemented. If you're not interested, so be it.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what you think, especially since you haven't even bothered to conduct a very simple experiment. That actually expresses the depth of your interest. Words, not the experience is the only thing that seems to be important to you.
Stu
By someone who has much DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Good enough for ME !!
No black wires for me, thanks unclestu, you did us all a favor !
Jeff Medwin
I wonder where the best place would be to do a test with this?
personally I don't "need" to do it, but it would be fun.
maybe on the RCA input?
also, gusser,
I've worked with Belden 8723 quite a bit here at work...and my monoblocks are wired in it.. I did parallel triple runs with it and.... omitted the black.
Aside from color, what do you think of the 8723 wire vs what you referenced? I remember from the specs it doesn't seem to "spec" as well, and it also uses PVC instead of teflon...which is harder to strip, but haven't seen any major issues with it... also noted that its only rated to 300 volts...but I'm using it in the 450volt range... (oops)
I will say... having used TCSS after that belden wire, much easier to work with...also nice that the TCSS has multple solid strands of different gauge wound together. (for what that is worth)
At one point i time I worked closely with some wire designers. I have already mentioned Jim Patrick of Music Metre and I can talk about his products because he has retired from the business. I was a dealer and watched his evolution of designs, and since I liked his stuff, I made a few suggestions upon which he followed up upon, making small prototype runs and later entering it into full scale runs (incidentally Roger Skoff interviewed Jim and stole his gauge configuration for the XLO Reference interconnects, at least according to Jim....)
Jim bought 6N ingots from Nippon Mining and had it drawn down By MWS in LA. He had to go to another company to have the FEP teflon insulation applied, which I won't bother to explain if you don't understand the reasons why. In the prototyping work he did, he would often send me samples of wires he was experimenting with. I had silver wire, 6N copper wire,in different insulation, gauges, and colors. I would install them in the inputs of a preamp so I could easily switch back and forth. It was an extreme learning situation and my experiences would be shared with Jim as corroboration for efforts on his part. The input wires to the PCB ran only 1.5 inches, but differencs were clearly audible.In addition to this direct experimentation, I have done many mods whereby I simply replaced all the black insulated wire with any other color. The result was an improvement in clarity: having a pervasive smear being eliminated.
Since any coloration means a contaminant is being added (plastics are a normally a milky white and even clear requires additional chemicals to the mix), different colors actually have different sonic character. I have not researched the chemical nature of the other color dopants, but I believe the artists paint pallet gives a clue: cobalt blue,cadmium red, etc. Again, I must reiterate that I have been told that there are some black colors which do not use carbon. I have not come across any of them in wire insulation yet, however. I am told that the Quiex black vinyl LPs, which are translucent when held up to the light are non carbon based, but I have no other verification, and certainly I do not use them for insulation.
Again YMMV
Stu
Edits: 04/30/12
Thank you! Very interesting!!
What do the engineers or senior technicians on staff where you work think of this bad BLACK wire theory?
As I have said there is not a thread of any research that proves black wire insulation is bad. I have never heard of this problem outside this forum and I have been in the broadcast and film industry as a systems engineer since 1983.
Unlike some here Rage you seem to be open to common sense and willing to question some of these outlandish claims buy untrained hobbiests.
Don't you think if BLACK wire has some negative effect on audio signal transmission we would have heard about it by now from the established electronics industry?
With regards to this part, here is my guess.
In broadcasting you have long runs, balanced audio, processing etc.. There are compromises. We still try and get the best quality audio possible out to the transmitter sites. I think if the black insulation really made much difference, perhaps common mode rejection would take care of it. Perhaps my understanding of CMR is incorrect though. I doubt black insulation would be an issue with a 50 foot run of cable however.
At home I try and use the simplest circuits I can, shortest lengths of wire possible, etc.
Given that I am using ultra simple circuits, single ended amps, high efficiency speakers etc I figure the quality of parts and wire being better are to my advantage. I might not hear the difference. I figure in part it could be considered like "tuning a car for maximum performance", or anything else where something might be blue printed and every possible detail considered for the finished product. Even if I don't hear the individual "improvements", maybe I can hear the sum with the final product.... still though, I can not deny that measuring is very important with "Car tuning", and hence why I would like to get a good understanding for measuring the audio stuff I am working with.
In truth, and I've said this before.. A/B comparisons are VERY difficult for me. I figure half of this is that I don't have a lot of time into the hobby and can't actually distinguish the difference...the other half being that I just don't always buy into subjective differences. It's too difficult for me to discern.
I have heard big differences rolling rectifiers in one of my single ended amps. I've also heard big differences with friends rolling driver and output tubes.
I don't roll tubes in my system.
I haven't heard big differences changing from electrolytic caps to film caps. I don't hear big differences between film caps.
I did hear big changes in my monoblocks when changing capacitor values. I started with 1800uf in them and low dcr chokes and moved down to 110 uf... each step of the way I heard big changes, but couldn't pin point what would be more "accurate."
I do hear a lot more in my 2a3 amps.. it could be that I am full of shit, but I swear I can hear break in after new solder joints. There seems to be a "settle down effect." I also *believe* I have heard a difference as the whole thing has broken in...mostly a mellowing out effect.
On a final long winded note, I would very much like to acquire some kind of FFT as well as a good spectrum analyzer. Minus3db (sorry not the correct name) recently posted a free FFT software and I did set that up...very exciting for me.
I wouldn't dare mention the black wire theory. I'd have my head ripped off. :)
I work in a cluster of 5 radio stations in Port Huron, Michigan.
11 years ago I was hired as the "Network administrator" with "some engineering duties."
A few years after that they eliminated the Chief Engineer and replaced him a with a contract engineer.
Over time I've managed to end up with about 90% of the engineering duties.
I'm lucky in that the one day per week I have to spend with the contract engineer I get to pick his brain a great deal. I take advantage of that every chance I get.
One really cool thing for me is the building of tube amps has had (seemingly) direct transfer to my understanding of the tubed transmitters.
Anyhow, the engineer I work with would be in the camp that "wire doesn't matter in audio", and much of what he says is pretty much verbatim what you say.
I like to take both sides into the equation, experiment a bit on my own and try and understand what is going on as best I can.
Seeing how small the broadcast industry is, you probably know him.
With regards to the belden wire, it was the capacitance I noted didn't spec as well as some of their other wire.
I actually stripped the jacket and foil off of the wire I used..it was very labor intensive... free wire, labor not free.
Initially when I built my monoblocks I used 12 ga black stranded wire...as at that time I was studying earlier "LSES" related posts...
I just ordered 40 feet of clear TCSS from Angela... a little spendy, but should get me through my next amp project and give me a tiny bit of extra I hope.
Can I assume that the clear wire has no pigment or any chemicals that would impede the transfer efficiency of the wires?
Does anyone have any objective scientific testing or subjective listening experience regarding the clear jacketed wires?
dt 667
Even clear requires additives. Normal plastic is a milky white, like those cheaper zip lock type bags or that teflon spaghetti.If you have the money try comparing the MIT Z cord. The first iteration had a beige outer insulation, and the second iteration had a black jacket. Factory claims that absolutely nothing was done to the design except for the outer jacket color, but the black jacketed version is distinctly lacking in top end response ( I used to be a dealer for them).
The lighter colors are generally more benign: clear, white, brown, gray. Black is significant only because it normally contains carbon.
Stu
Edits: 04/30/12
Thanks.
I will add you to my list of forum participants who respond in a rational and intelligent manner to my questions.
dt 667
There is no such thing as "transfer efficiency." This term is just something Jeff brought back from one of his trips to fantasyland. It is better described as the impact of belief on auditory perception.
Wire insulation has various measurable properties that can influence the signal transmission properties. You may want to think about dielectric constant, dielectric absorption, and maybe (just maybe) bulk resistivity.
As "transfer efficiency" has never been described in terms of objectively measurable characteristics of either the wire or the signals passing through it, the entire concept remains entirely propositional. It is a property of the listener, not of the wire.
I say in total seriousness that you will likely experience an increase in transfer efficiency if you pray to God for the fidelity of your wire. Prayer has long been prescribed as a claimed effective means of obtaining desired outcomes to challenging problems.
-Henry
Transfer efficiency was already understood by Dennis Fraker 20 years ago.It refers to the way energy moves inside the amplifiers.
It is not just one isolated characteristic but rather the integration of several advanced engineering concepts all coming together at the same time. You can't just look at the wires apart from the whole amplifier.
I don't think Dennis has fully explained this concept here because it is a key component in the construction of his Serious Stereo 2A3 monoamps and considered proprietary information.
I have never tried to implement the advanced concepts of transfer efficiency on my breadboards or in a final amplifier. I have only implemented the suggested components and worked out the basic circuit values for a functional SE stereo amplifier.
You might want to ask Jeff Medwin, Rage or some of the other guys here how they have wired up their circuits if you really want to learn more.
Have a nice day,
dt 667
Edits: 04/26/12
I mean are these advanced "transfer efficiency" concepts only applicable to SET amps?Because if these advanced engineering techniques result in faster electron movement through a circuit as is implied, I know some people at Intel for a start that would be very interested.
Has Dennis spoken to any of the major semiconductor or computer systems companies yet?
Joking aside, now don't you see how silly this is?
Edits: 04/26/12
Well, in past discussions with Dennis, his engineering explanations haven't really made much sense. I think a lot of us have decided that Dennis is pretty much a self-taught technician whose "cowboy logic" is nothing more than a collection of conventional techniques and a good deal of fancy.
I'll say again, there is nothing in "transfer efficiency" that is not better explained by conventional means, or as wishful thinking.
People like Dennis, Jeff, and Rage aren't engineers, and don't really seem qualified (no offense intended) to shed light on what may or may not be the objective underpinnings of self-coined terms like "transfer efficiency."
I mean, if you're going to introduce a design principle and call it magic, then that's fine. At least it's honest. But if you want to call it "advanced engineering," then engineers have standard ways of discussing these things. To hide behind gobbledygook or to say it can't be described because it's proprietary information is just disingenuous and an insult to the audience.
I'm quite open to new ideas, but given how many people there are in the world making extraordinary claims, I don't jump on a bandwagon until I see some convincing evidence to back up the claims. When I first read your reply, I was really surprised by how similar the language was to the kind of rhetoric I hear from religious cult members.
If you're really committed to your point of view and willing to put your money where your mouth is, I'd be delighted to have a formal, open debate with you. Something along the lines of, "Resolved: Transfer Efficiency is an objectively valid measure of quality in audio electronics circuits." You take the aff side and I take the neg. Just let me know if you want to take me up on my offer.
-Henry
"People like Dennis, Jeff, and Rage aren't engineers, and don't really seem qualified (no offense intended) to shed light on what may or may not be the objective underpinnings of self-coined terms like "transfer efficiency.""
None taken. I'm here to learn. I don't have the background to explain transfer efficiency or debate any of this, hence my reluctance to reply.
I can post the results I've had with the 2a3 amp build overall, but aside from measurements much of that is subjective....
Glad to hear it. FWIW, I can't say for sure whether or not black wire sounds different than other colors as a rule. It's hard to imagine why it should, but I can't rule it out. All I can say is that, IMHO, the difference, if it exists, has not been proven.
Proof by appeal to authority, I think, is only valid when the credentials of the authority have been established. But these credentials should always be traceable to the fundamentals, which is not the case for Dennis.
-Henry
There's the question as to if black insulation sounds different in a wire carrying an analog audio signal. I agree, it's plausible when you take into account the standard electrical parameters of the wire against the signal parameters. If say the capacitance per foot is higher AND the impedance of the signal is too high.... well you get it.And then there's the question of black insulation on a power cord sounding different than a red insulated wire of the same gauge. I have a huge problem with that. Any differences heard there are certainly due to another factor.
I will say this though. If you have a circuit in either consumer or professional line level audio that is influenced by the capacitance of the wire insulation pigment, you have a piss-poor circuit design!
Empirically speaking, I still say it's all hogwash. As for credible authoritative references may I introduce Belden and Commscope.
Edits: 04/26/12 04/26/12 04/26/12
" But these credentials should always be traceable to the fundamentals, which is not the case for Dennis."
I'm not certain that is the case. I don't think he really ever felt the need to go out of his way to show is credentials here...
I thought at first you might have an actual grudge with Dennis...but now I believe you are just baiting Jeff and doing some trolling of your own.
Which is fair game. I realize not everyone appreciates Jeff style of getting his message out. I don't have a problem with his gorilla marketing. I'm thankful to have found his posts and this forum.
No, I wasn't trying to bait Jeff. I was responding to Deathtube's post above where made an appeal to Dennis's authority in lieu of saying anything substantial to refute my comments about "transfer efficiency."Authority is just the recognition by others that they ought to believe and/or follow the things you have to say. I don't know if you've read any of the threads a few years ago when Dennis was posting here; he did try to establish his authority in various (unconvincing) ways. But aside from that, he seems to have become the cult guru du jour for a certain fraction of the folks here, largely thanks to promotion by Jeff, I think. So it doesn't really matter what Dennis says about himself as much as it does that certain people treat him as an authority and use that to try to justify their beliefs.
I an a strong believer in authority, but only when it's earned through a number of accomplishments, not the least of which is a proven track record of saying things that are both important and true -- which, in the case of Dennis and his followers, seems to be pretty much the opposite of what they do.
FWIW.
-Henry
Edits: 04/26/12
(1) He was given best sound at RMAF 2005 by 6moons. That is an INDUSTRY WIDE audio show. Usually about 300 exhibitors.
(2) When I hear Dennis' most recent ( 2011 on ) 2A3 SE amps, with a good source, I personally KNOW he is an authority, because very few, if any other amps of that genre, will reach his performance level.
My Dad used to tell me, judge people by what they do, not what they say.
Its a shame you never heard his amp build at length, under truly optimal conditions.
Cheers.
Jeff Medwin
So seven years ago an obscure web magazine at an obscure audio show gave an obscure audio techncian/film projectionist/diesel mechanic/cowboy the best of show. Oh. My. Gosh. Forgive me for forgetting why I should be impressed.
Newton. Maxwell. Einstein. Hawking. Fraker. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
I wonder how many awards Audio Research or Pass Labs or Mark Levinson have won (to name just a few)?
Cripes, Jeff! What is it with you and this hero worship thing, anyway? Are you incomplete unless you have some role model/alter ego to brag about? Is this, like, some kind of personality disorder?
I have personally "listened" to what Dennis Fraker has to say, and based on over thirty years of experience, during which time I have developed an exquisite sensitivity to... baloney... I can authoritatively say... the man does not know what he's talking about.
Any idiot can build a great sounding amplifier by following readily available instructions on the Internet. Any idiot can build a box and put a coaxial driver in it according to the manufacturer's instructions. Bravo! Dennis got the Best of Show award in 2005. A nice accomplishment. Get back to me when his sales volume hits over one thousand units a year and he wins the TAS reference component of the year award. And even if he does, if he's still talking nonsense, my opinion of him won't change one iota.
But this isn't about Dennis, because Dennis (thank god) doesn't (usually) post here. You should be grateful, Jeff, that I have been kind enough to try to give you a modest education in audio engineering. The fact that you have learned nothing speaks volumes about your failure as a student and my failure as a teacher.
We live in a senseless, irrational world. If I can't get through to you, Jeff, and teach you to use your brain, what possible hope is there for society at large, dominated as it is by unthinking, reactionary numbskulls?
Ah, what irony. I was born at the dawn of the space age. My mentor was James Tiberius Kirk, who taught me that human spirit, intelligence, reason, and compassion could overcome any problem, and by sheer force of will put millions-of-years-old advanced alien civilizations to shame. Action is always guided by deliberate consideration of logical alternatives, with respectful attention to the advice of the science officer, the medical officer, and the chief engineer. Instead, it turns out that mankind is as dumb as a door nail. The horror... The horror...
If you had brains and balls, Jeff, you would engage me point by point with the deliberate intention of (metaphorically speaking) tearing my throat out, or die trying. Anything less is an insult to both of us. Instead, you cling and cower behind the coattails of your "mentors."
EveAnna Manley is ten times the man you are, Jeff, LOL.
Learn to use your brain like a rational human being, Jeff. Learn to think for yourself. You might find it refreshing. Stop feeding us this repetitive blather, then throwing a hissy fit and pointing to your mentors, dead or absent, when your ideas come under reasoned scrutiny. This is a discussion board. Merit is determined by the quality of your IDEAS, as expressed through WRITING.
-Henry
Hardly anyone writes as good as you Henry. I would be stupid to get into a pi$$ing match with you via words. Writing is basically what you do !!
So, for now, MY writing will be that I have written you OFF as a person.
I often wonder what your home hi fi sounds like...HA !!!
Jeff Medwin
Once again, thank you for complimenting my writing. I always think carefully before I write and try as best I can to express myself clearly and completely.
My stereo sounds great! My new power amplifier is AWESOME. My wife says it's the best sounding amplifier I ever built. People who hear the system are amazed that such small speakers can sound so big. Considering I paid $269 for the pair, it's a small miracle.
You should hear my friend Brian's system with his Reference 3a MM de Capos and the 6V6 amplifiers I sold him. Superb!
My stereo will sound even better when I get my new speakers built. Just a half hour ago, I was trying again to convince my wife to let me spend the money to buy the drivers. Sigh... Are you married, Jeff?
Writing is all I do? Shame! I think you're jealous because I'm a better craftsman than you are.
If you're afraid to engage in a debate based on substance, it must be because you know your ideas don't hold up. If you had something substantial to say, you would have nothing to fear from me.
-Henry
Ok, so even though I meant what I said, I decided in the interest of civility to delete the ad hominems from my post.-Henry
Edits: 04/28/12
I just thought it looked cool.
I believe I read somewhere white and clear were supposed to sound the best.
It was easier to order all one color and be lazy. I figure I'll use different colored shrink wrap to help identify the wiring.
Belden 8723 is of the same electrical class as 8451/9451 series. The difference is that it is 2 shielded pairs. Pair 1 is RED and BLACK and pair #2 is WHITE and GREEN. Each pair has a foil shield and there is a 22awg drain wire wrapped between the two foil shielded pairs.We use 8723 extensively in the entertainment industry for RS422 data lines which require two balanced pairs. I was also used for audio in the past but today there are much better products that have jacketed pairs. I have also used a lot of Belden 1504 which is two 9451 pairs individually jacketed and bonded as a zip cord.
Just for reference:
8450 - solid 22awg single pair with solid 22awg drain wire and foil shield
8451 - stranded 22awg single pair with sstranded 22awg drain wire and foil shield
9450 - same as 8450 (all solid 22awg) but the foil shield is bonded to the jacket so it snaps off clean when stripped
9451 - same as 8451 (all stranded 22 awg) but with bonded shield.
And of of the late 1990s, 9451 is available with 10 jacket colors of the standard EIA resistor code. It was initially introduced as BLACK only then was available also in GRAY.
Today 9451 is the most popular. the solid wire was popular up through the 1970s when type 66 punch blocks were often used for audio distribution. Now days better split cylinder punch blocks are used that need stranded wire. And of course anytime a cable is used with a connector, it should be stranded.
You say 8723 doesn't "spec well"? What does that mean? It's specs are more than sufficient for transport of baseband analog audio up to hundreds of feet using industry standard levels of +4db. Now it does not do well at all transporting AES digital audio. beyond say 25 feet it will cause problems with errors. Too much capacitance and the wrong impedance, 60ohms versus 110ohms. can you use AES wire for analog audio? Sure, but it's more money and won't make an audible difference in short lengths, that is under 200 feet.
Note that in the real A/V electronics world solid versus stranded is determined by mechanical needs. We in the professional audio / video business don't buy into the solid versus stranded sounds different crap.
Edits: 04/25/12 04/25/12 04/25/12 04/25/12 04/25/12
"I have done many blind tests upon unsuspecting customers "
Should there be a "D" or a "M" or a "P" next to your name?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Well, I used to run a store and I did have a "D" after my moniker, but I haven't had a store in 6 years..... I did run that store for 20 years, however, for what that's worth. And if you think I was unscrupulous, I shared all my information with my customers (eventually)and gave them all money back guarantees.Stu
PS: Gotta remember, I'm an old man.
Edits: 04/27/12
Belden 8450, 8451, 9450, 9451 are stranded and solid versions of 22ga single pair shielded audio cable. This stuff has been around since at least the 1950s and is the standard wire for line level audio signals in recording, radio, TV, and motion picture audio systems. Billions of feet of this stuff have been used in these applications since it was brought to market. The product is copied by most other major wire manufactures as well.It has a RED wire, a Shield, and a BLACK wire.
OK, so they didn't know any better back then you might say? But wait, in the late 1990s they brought out a whole new line of AES single pair cable for digital audio. This stuff is 110ohms and AES transmission requires a -3db point at 6mhz.
Guess what, RED and BLACK again!
So no, based on this evidence I see no need to waste time doing the silly tests you propose
Edits: 04/24/12 04/24/12 04/24/12
from my memory on each other their A/B tests....
they played a track intro twice, then switched the equipment. then played twice again. they may have gone back and forth a few times.
at the time I chalked the power cord up to "cryogenic treatment".
most of their other tests I couldn't distinguish a difference. I realize "auditory memory" is at play and also that a double blind would be more accurate.
Of the 5 or more pieces they swapped in and out, the only time I heard an auditory difference was with the power cords...the standard issue 16 ga black cheapies vs their $1k (or more) cord...and like I said, it was an obvious change.
It could be due to the length of the cable, shielding, the conductor, etc etc etc.... I liked the idea of snubbers on the secondary eliminating the majority of the difference in sound concept....seemed like it at least put a reasonable explanation on what I heard.
I'm content with Beldon power cords, or anything heavy and up to the job. I don't use an IEC.
here is the post I was referring to:
Posted by John Swenson (A ) on October 22, 2009 at 17:43:49
In Reply to: RE: Ping DanL posted by gusser on October 22, 2009 at 09:42:03:
I did a lot of testing on this a year or so ago with a scope and spectrum analyzer, I DID
find a measurable correlation with power cords.
It has to do with transformer resonances in the range of 100KHz to 700KHz or so.
Almost every transformer I measured had a high Q resonance in this range that was
excited by both diode noise and current pulses from the filter. In addition to the excitation
from within the box I found that interbox coupling occurs over the power cords.
So even if you use schottky diodes and a choke input filter your transformer can still ring
from noise coming in over the cord. The type (and length) of a cord can have a profound
impact on this interbox coupling. In addition the power cords are great radiators of these
frequencies, I found at least a 60dB difference in the amount of this noise radiated from
different power cords!
In EVERY box I tested this noise sailed right through the power supply, it was too high
to be attenuated much by the transformers and chokes and too low to be attenuated much
by the RF suppression networks commonly used.
I found a paper written by Jim Haggerman that addresses this issue. He recommends
putting a resistor and cap in series across the secondary of the transformer to damp these
resonsnces. I did a lot of experimenting and came up with 330 ohms in series with .022uf
works fairly well for almost all transformers I tried it with.
With this snubber in place even cheap diodes driving cap input filters cannot excite
the resonance. Interbox coupling is almost completely gone. With these in place on all
my gear I have greatly reduced sensitivity to different power cords. There still is some
difference but its not nearly as much as before.
Of course this is probably not all there is, but it was significant and it turned out to
surprisingly easy to control without spending a ton of money. The upsot is that I
don't have any expensive power cords in my system any more, I don't need them. The
differences I hear now have almost no correlation to cost. I might find an expensive one
that sounds slitghtly better than cheap ones but I can usually find something similar for
way less.
The next level is going to be far more difficult to uncover.
John S.
"No electronics professional is going to buy into this garbage!"
That is THEIR "typical" problem, unable to think creatively - or out of the box !! Hindered by their so-called "education".
I will do what works !!! Damn if I care why.
If a banana skin amplified well, I'd enjoy it, and not worry about "the proof".
Cheers Gusser,
Jeff Medwin
Show me the research so I can digest it. There is absolutely nothing technical or remotely scientific in that post you referenced.
Yes, that is true!!
A couple of weeks ago, you accepted and READ the JLH/Swenson supply notes I asked you to review.
Let me critique another way " You have a narrow training ".
Cheers,
Jeff Medwin
Do you really want my report of that paper. I'm with Henry. There are some solid design points as well as some questionable theory that cannot be substantiated.What i got out of it was "IF you want to build an LSES, this is how you do it". Ok but suppose I build a stiff power supply. That's a whole different approach the paper does not address.
Edits: 04/23/12
gusser - What is your take on "dynamic impedance" as well as "step response?"
I think your report on the document could make for an interesting conversation/reading.
Try and not let it turn into a flame war and we might learn something. :)
"What is your take on "dynamic impedance" as well as "step response?""I have to question the importance of the step response assuming a Class A audio circuit.
What musical event would ever cause the current draw to increase (or decrease) instantly and in a sustained way?
Edit, I have to add that I think the "step response" function in PSUD 2 is great for showing if the filter is prone to ringing.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/23/12
"The wire was #37 bondcoat and needed to be baked at 350 degrees to set." I thought everybody knew by now that the approved method was not baked, only half-baked. ;)
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