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I have been using some Teflon solid core 22 gauge wire for signal that I got off of Ebay for something like $60 per 100' spool. I do so much playing around with stuff after it is built the first time that I got tired of melting insulation.
What are people using for B+ and heater wires?
Follow Ups:
teflon insulated stuff. some silver plated, some not. The other stuff is way too sensitive to being brushed with a soldering iron.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
18 AWG Belden silver plated copper with Teflon insulted. I have to look for the part number since I bought several rolls with different colour jacket.
1. Forget solid-core wire. Just a small nick when stripping the insulation can lead to a breakage later. Stranded is better.
2. Teflon insulation is the best; doesn't shrink way down the wire when being soldered.
3. For signal circuits, 24 ga is quite enough. For high-current heaters, you need more, depending on how many tubes and how far, maybe 16 ga.
4. Claims about superior sound from silver wire, etc, are in the same category as witchcraft. Save your money!
...for B+, 10 awg Belden/Alpha buss bar wire for grounds, Navy surplus, twisted pair shielded silver wire for balanced input and output leads.
"The gift of imagination is a gift of the Gods imparted to a few who receive innumerable kicks in the a$$ their entire life." Le Corbusier (Charles-Édouard Jeanneret)
.
Some 20 gauge pre-tined wire that I got form Axman surplus for $11 for 1000'. Silver plated copper. "Pre tined" means that it's been run through solder, which gives it some stiffness (please, no jokes!) and makes it very easy to solder. I couldn't tell you what the insulation is, but it's white with a green stripe. Whatever it is, it doesn't "melt back" under heat like PVC does.
It isn’t Kimber TSS, but as they say in Minnesota, “it’s good enough”.
Mostly silver plated teflon. Plain old PVC stuff for primary AC power wiring.I get the stuff cheap from here so why not! no shrink back and highly solderable. Those are my reasons.
You should really hear the stuff they store outside. It has that "nice warm California sunshine sound" baked right in :)
Edits: 12/02/11 12/02/11 12/02/11 12/02/11
I use teflon insulated solid core silver wire for signal carrying connections. Solid core copper is fine, too, but I slightly prefer silver. For signals within a preamp or in the front end of an amplifier, thin gauge ( <20Ga) is predominant. If I need more conductor, I prefer to double, triple or quadruple up on thin gauge wire, rather than to use a thick wire. Lately I am liking Cardas solid core silver from M Percy, but it is quite expensive. Because of Jeff, I find myself using heavy gauge wires for power supplies and from power supply to plate, for example. Here I will use stranded wire, at least 15Ga. The only wire I absolutely don't like sonically is silver-plated copper. Sorry, I don't tend to use Kimber TCSS, because as someone else noted, it is too expensive for the application. I buy some of my "grunt" wire from Nebraska Surplus Sales.
and yes I too get tired of smelly melting insultation from adjacent wires in projects I am overheating...(hehe read guitar amps, or the occasional classic tube Harmon Kardon or Fisher Amp/Receiver)...anyway Teflon is better in everyway...
and the color black is definitely the worst wire...yes...now you know...
which is why I switched to 'white' wire for my ground runs...
ok projects cheap I use solid Teflon wire from ApexJr in most colors, and I shouldn't be telling you this, because he occasionally runs out of the solid cu/ silver coated wire...it is good and cheap in 20 ga...this is what I use for Awesome sounding guitar amp projects...
and now that he has solid 16ga in WHITE only....this is what I am using for ground runs and maybe more...
for "better quality" wire in HiFi projects, I use Kimber TCSS...smooth clear deep, and perhaps not in black, but if black is all I have left, then there you go....hehe
I have watched DrLowMu use the triple strand TCSS form, and was impressed ...this amounts to 15.5ga equiv, and is available actually in a single teflon sheath from Kimber...at a whapping $4.25/ft from Micheal Percy. and this is when I decided to try the 16ga White Solid CU/Ag from ApexJr....and the envelope please...yes the bigger gauge I think makes a difference, and just like it is...bigger & deep sound just like the wire...
and finally for the heaters...now know that I am really telling you my secrets ...Bell wire....this is usually 6.3v wire people ok yes I raise the heaters to 50v most of the time WOW...
So, Bell wire comes in two wires pink&white, they are 20ga, very soft, so easy to twist, and they are cheap, soft, and do the job, we ordinarily try to avoid listening to our heaters so why use audio level wire/???
And they look good in an amp...I will try to post a photo ok thanks
sorry for the photo quality...from my cheap camera G1, ok this mess is a Fender Deluxe with a bunch of Mods scabbed onto a HarmonKardon A300k chassis...this is a guitar test chassis where I test Tone Stock mods, Cathode bias, mixed bias, solid state vs tube rectification etc. You can see the candy cane Bell Wire in the middle, and I am just starting to use the 16ga White in the lower left. The big Wirewound Rheostat for testing Cathode Bias in the upper left. This guitar amp sound Great actually.
-3db
I have a good friend (Spkerman57) who uses bell wire for all his speaker hook ups. I have to tell you, he has outstanding ears! If you think about it, bell wire is solid copper, not tinned, in a simple twisted PVC jacket. Maybe there's something there. I'll go to Home Depot (sorry Bill) and get some this weekend. It will be the new anti-cable!!!
I'm not so sure. I am guessing, in many applications, theee TCSS or even two TCSS might possibly beat one TCX 15 gauge lead.
I would rather see DIYers routinely use two TCSS in MOST spots, than three. Two maintains the bandwidth and flow, and it becomes a reasonable compromise.
Jeff
try the SF23 for signal leads. It is an oval cross sectional wire of 23 gauge. One of the best hookup wires I have yet to try.
Stu
Stu,
Appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I am open to try it out,. Need to figure out where and when ! I often now parallel two TCSS, have you ever tried to parallel TCSS or SF23 ? Any thoughts, pro/con?
Cheers.
Jeff Medwin
While I routinely double TCSS for power supplies and speaker leads (even tripling at times), I do not double the SF23. I find I get more pristine detail with a single strand, which is plenty gauge for most signals on the preamp level ( obviously not enough for power amp outputs)
Others may disagree but I find the more finely stranded the signal carrying: the more "smear" I hear, with a single solid core sounding the most pristine. The issue is that the solid core wire sound will vary considerably depending on the gauge used and the treatment of the conductor surface.
The bigger the gauge, of course as you know, the more the tonality shifts to the bass. Smaller gauges seem to favor the treble. The SF23 is unusual in that it is an oval cross section with a 2 to 1 geometry cross sectional wise. I used to work a bit on waveguides in the Navy and their frequency response is determined by the height and width of the waveguides. I suspect that instead of having two resonant frequencies in the rectanglular guides used by the Navy,the oval cross section gives a sort of continuous sweep. For a 23 Gauge it has superb bass.
I do occasionally double up on the grounds, however. This is particularly true with certain digital gear which have a "brighter" sound characteristic. I have noticed that you can control tonality by the ration of positive to negative wire gauge. More negative or ground: more bass. More positive, the treble increases.
Stu
UncleStu,
My big brother's name is Stu. Thank you, I am glad I am not alone in doubling up TCSS... and I have good company. I will try the SF23. Appreciated your comments and input, fun hobby.
Jeff Medwin
I also like using teflon insulated wire . I use it everywhere :
19/0.45 strand C rated teflon wire for speaker leads
19/0.25 C rated teflon for fils
19/0.25 C rated teflon for B+/topcap leads etc
0.8mm TCW sleeved in teflon for the rest
Al
Kimber TCSS
Red for B+
Blue for signal
Black for ground
White for heaters
Until I run out of a particular color and then it can get a little random.....
Audio Note (UK) Lexus and Vx. The first is copper, the second silver. All stranded litz. Lexus has more body, but Vx is not thin or bright.
"You don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
I use Cardas. Why is there another kind?
Cardas. When I was starting out with this I purchased some Cardas Litz wire with the enamel coating on each strand. I can still smell the burning enamel and the melting casing.
Cardas is a pain in the ASS! But I like it anyway.
I call it "rich" and "involving."
Get this premium wire exclusively from Machina Dynamica.
Disclaimer: This post is a joke. Machina Dynamica probably doesn't sell the above product -- yet.
“I was born not knowing and have only had a little time to change that here and there.” Richard Feynman
Lmao!!!! I get sick of that guy and his bullshit!
Hi Chris,
I usually will rely upon two runs of Kimber TCSS for budget building, any color but black. TCSS has a teflon outer coat, multi stranded copper, different diameters in a group of seven wires. One TCSS run (only) just doesn't have the transfer efficiency I like to have and hear, but two is a decent compromise approach.
Jeff Medwin
I second the Kimber TCSS suggestion. I use it everywhere I can. Curious, Drlowmu, why you don't like it in black?
Hi,Fair question, and you may laugh at me.
Perhaps about a year ago, while surfing on line, I came across a high level discussion on Joe Net, or some place like that, by some "far out and intenser-than-me" audio builders. They were all discussing, postulating on a very serious level, WHY black insulation on a wire sounds BAD, producing the worse sound of any possible insulation color. Hey, it wasn't a spoof. Darn, I wish I would have bookmarked that discussion.
So, I will follow their comments, and will use ANY nice color, but black.
When you look at my 2A3 amp build of 2011, (partially completed), the ground wires are all white, particularly in third photo down, where you are seeing my star ground.
Its less energy for me to order white wire, than to determine if the black is, or isn't, messin' with the fidelity - as others seemed to be claiming !! So, I live with no black.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 12/01/11 12/01/11
dude.
I remember that thread and it was a classic case of an empiricist doing his job. I do believe he was using PVC wire and extrapolating his results to teflon wire is hack at best.
the good news is stu does lurk here and he can spank me and set both of our memories straight.
dave
Although I have been posting about the negative issues of black insulation, I am not the originator of this particular observation.I first learned of this from Stan Warren the S of PS Audio, and of Superphon fame. He used computer ribbon cable for the hookup of the inputs of his preamps but I noticed that he never used the black strand and simply left it hanging. It didn't separate input from output, nor positive from ground but just hung there. Curious I asked why and his answer that for some reason it sounded like "shit."
Not taking his word, I tried using it in place of another color and Stan was correct, the black wire sounded murky and devoid of detail that the other colors had ( to be sure, there were differences among them, too, but to as great an extent).
I avoided all black wire after that, although no explanation appeared till I mentioned this quirk to a professional painter. His reasoning was simple: all mixes of black involved adding carbon black, a slightly conductive material. This essentially must turn the black insulator into a crappy conductor and signal moves into the insulation and returns at a very delayed time interval.
This was reinforced when as a Kimber dealer I received word that their PBJ wire (a teflon composite) could be had in eight various color combinations and you could order any combination you desired as long as you ordered a roll (250 feet). Experimenting with different color combinations was a revelation. The sound changed dramatically by the simple elimination of the black insulation. Suffice to say, my conclusion was that the lighter colors were more benign than the darker colors.
What was also interesting is that because I use a thermal stripper, there are distinct differences in working the various colored insulation. The lighter colors strip much more easily than the black. Apparently the dye lots used affect even such things as the thermal capability as well as the mechanical working of the insulation.
Communicating this with Kimber met with considerable, well, not resistance, but a kind of hunh, are you sure? It wasn't till I personally placed an IC made with an alternate color into Ray's hand using his wire, solder and ends, that he actually did a listenimg comparison and made an evaluation. The same conclusion that Stan Warren had made was quickly reached although Ray did admit that he had to purchase a $100K Rhode and Schwartz Real Time analyzer to determine the validity of my speculation.
A recent rehashing over on Tweaks Asylum had John Curl posting a chart from Belden showing that there were measurable differences in coax cable, depending on the color of the insulation ( black and white were compared).
Now, apparently not all black coloration uses carbon: Just most of them. Further evidence is that guy who rebuilds Quad 57's in Florida ( Wayne Piquet, IIRC). Among other things he does in the rebuilding is that he removes all black paint Quad used to use top hid the reflection off the electrostatic panels. It eventually causes arcing, apparently.
In working on an older post and pile homes with the AC lines stapled to the wood joists, I did notice that the black insulated wire always appeared cracked where ever the wire was bent at an angle around a metal staple. The white ( neutral ) wire appeared to be fine. I suspect the black insulation was arcing through to the metal staple and over heating the insulation.
You can readily hear this effect in power cables also. Euro color coding has brown, blue, green in lieu of the US black, white, green combo. The same manufacturer's Euro power cords have noticeably more top end than the US models ( I've done listening tests using Belden and Dale tech power cords). I have found in Home depot ( only once, though) a power cable using, in lieu of black insulation, a white wire with a black outer coating: it did sound better than the normal wire.
In fact, I have experimented with using four wire Romex in place of the standard three wire. The fourth wire adds a red strand which is normally coded for a switched outlet. Using the red wire in place of the black again significantly opens up the top end and adds a layer of transparency that the black wire readily disguises.
Of course YMMV.
Remember that many components using black wire extensively probably have had the designers compensating elsewhere for the effects associated with the black insulation. Coupling caps may be smaller in value to give more top end, and tube selection may be altered to give a different tonal quality, etc., etc. If you wish to experiment, change out the wire on the input and output grounds first and then follow with the wire in the signal path. It is a very cheap and simple mod.
Stu
Edits: 12/02/11
Not only do I now have to spend the whole freekin' weekend rewiring all my amps, I have to repaint all my transformer end bells! Crap, I just painted those damn Edcor blue things!
This should be easily measured. Both with simple resistance tests and frequency sweeps.Has anyone taken a scientific approach to what is being heard?
"In working on an older post and pile home with the AC lines stapled to the wood joists I did notice that the black insulated wire always appeared cracked where ever the wire was bent at an angle around a metal staple. The white ( neutral ) wire appeared to be fine. I suspect the black insulation was arcing through to the metal staple and over heating the insulation."
I propose another theory. The black insulation is certainly of a different chemical makeup. The black insulation ages differently and loses elastic properties faster than other colors. Because why would the power arc to the staple if the staple was hammered into dry wood?
This is getting way too weird for me. Not only are we saying power cords make a difference in audio reproduction (provided ohms law is obeyed), that's been beaten to death, now we are saying the color of the wire in the AC power cord has an impact?
Edits: 12/02/11 12/02/11 12/02/11
Try measuring those two parameters on a length of Romex. Any differences are negligible. The parameter being affected is not resistance or frequency response, it is timing and phase. Again we are talking relatively minute differences which somehow translate to audible differences. In my post I referred to the fact that Kimber had to purchase a 100K real time analyzer with enough sensitivity to measure the effect, As Ray has stated "It took $100K to measure and but only took seconds for an listening comparison to determine the sonic differences."
Stu
"The parameter being affected is not resistance or frequency response, it is timing and phase"
To the best of my knowledge any phase shift will cause a change in the frequency response.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Modern audiophile theory as proven in numerous listening tests rejects all his work!
So how does "timing and phase" come into play on a wire carrying a continuous 60hz sinewave?And if Mr. Kimber has measured data that proves the effect, why has he not published it before the IEEE. Because I can tell you as a senior member, such a finding would be ground breaking!
And btw, delay and phase are easily measured too.
Edits: 12/02/11 12/02/11 12/02/11 12/02/11
Music does not consist of pure sine waves, as you are probably aware of.
Phase and real time delay are not so easily measured, at least not with really great precision.
While US power lines nominally output a continuous 60 Hz Sine wave, they have harmonics which are not necessarily simple sine waves. Also bear in mind that current and voltage are two different parameters. We have tremendous numbers of instruments dealing with the voltage domain, but rarely do we (as amateurs, at least) have current measuring capability or if we do, try measuring one parameter in comparison to another. For music, such phase differences in milliseconds are audible (take the reflective acoustics in a concert hall for example).
It is a well known fact that after any inductor, like a transformer ( and guess how many are in series with the current outputted by your duplex outlet), the current lags at least 90 degrees behind voltage.
That's why large institutions have what they call power factor correctors: large caps placed on the AC line to place the voltage in phase with the current. In fact current EU legislation has a requirement for electronic manufacturers to add power factor correctors to all gear sold in Europe in the next year or so, because it makes more efficient use of power.
That's why chokes work so well in power supplies too: they alter the phase angle of the current in relation to the voltage.
And then why should a manufacturer who just spent $100K openly share their observations and measurements with those who are not willing to spend the same amount of money? If that observation helps them to develop a superior product why share it with the have nots?
After all, if you are a member of the IEEE, why not conduct a simple observation by trying it on your own? It's not difficult, and then you can measure what you observe with your own instruments and then publish it for yourself. Just imagine, you could take all the credit....
Stu
I would like to learn more. I have seen big cap filters on good stuff and thought about using them. As for wire I have never really had access to decent stuff. Mostly just computer cat cable(solid). And mains wire of different solid sizes. Interestingly
I had the fortune of finding this apparently very pure silver uninsulated and separate Teflon tube at a affordable prices. I had ideas of even just spray lacquering my circuit after wiring bare. Silk or cloth would be my first choice funds permitting. All so around double the price mundorf is selling gold and silver mix.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AWG28-0-3MM-Solid-Core-UPOCC-SILVER-Audio-BARE-WIRE-60M-/270864753464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f10cc2338
I bought 50 meter's of this. Seemed like a lot of wire for a reasonable price. I plan to use it for internal wire as well as 600ohm interconnect. I hope I haven't been too cheap/thin The Mundorf below would be easier to work with at least. Anyone have an opinion on my decision on this stuff?
Back to reading about power supplys....
The problem with bare silver wire is that it tarnishes over time. I use Percy's teflon-insulated silver hook up wire, about 21 AWG. Also, such a low gauge as this 23 AWG will not "cut it" if used as a single run, as far as preserving transfer efficiency.
Stuff like Siltech uses THREE approximately 21 AWG wires, with just a little bit of gold in it. I would say, if you can figure out how to prevent tarnishing, use the 23 gauge DOUBLED up between the RCA jack hot lead and the grid pin of the input tube on your amp. Between stages to your finals, listen to 2, 3 and 4 of this 23 AWG in parallel. When you start to parallel, sometimes a different wire choice will be a better compromise.
Jeff Medwin
You may want to try this experiment. Place the paralleled silver wire on the negative or ground lead rather than the positive. I know it defies logic, but based on my experiment with the battery ground tweak, a touch of silver on the ground makes a bigger difference than on the positive.
Apparently silver has greater electromotive force than copper and thus releases more electrons. Even the smallest gauge paralleled with copper makes a rather large sonic difference, particularly in the mid and upper bass.
YMMV, of course.
Stu
I have thought about trying as seriously better than Kimber TCSS....
let us know what you think in a finished project....
I have like the Copper long crystal, and for HiFi i have longed for the detail of silver without the Tizzy Top end.... so
In Copper I think the Long Crystal is very good, just I am not sure it is worthe the money for the difference...
your Silver is a little more, but if I can get both detail and a Totally smooth Top end, then ok...
Would you say this Long Crystal Silver is Totally Smooth on the Top end...or ????
Thanks for posting the link,
Sincerely,
-3db
Pure silver wire built to the same spec's as copper generally has a softer top end with slightly lower dynamics, in terms of transient attack. It does seem to have a better tonality in terms of the lingering tone quality.
Silver plate is a mixed bag and I believe a lot has to do with the thickness of the plating. Most plated wire has been a bit "zippy" on the top end in my opinion, and I much prefer either a pure silver or a pure copper conductor.
Stu
I will use it the next project and can report on it. I am not sure how valid it will be. I probably will only continue to use or stop using it if something jumps out as good or bad. I probabyly... actually strike that I will be making leads so I will test it against copper and what ever else I have. AB comparisons same plugs. I want 3 runs of that mundorf gold silver 1mm for my power supply's soon as I can get a roll.
After reading Stu's writings I don't think I will be using any black any more. I don't like the shade anyway lol.
Bell Wire.. used it for power supply's for first ten years having nothing better. I really have nothing better yet . I did my last amp fully shielded solid coax and it was quiet! 3mm triple silver on Teflon over copper sheet sounds like worth saving for.Maybe even 1mm will do.
With Siltech being three runs paralleled at about 21 AWG, I would mimic that SIZE approach. When the wire gets too BIG, eg: 1 mm, audio performance as far as flow and balance will get effected negatively, and there may be a loss of the extreme top end.
Jeff Medwin
You claimed using the red wire in a length of 12/3 Romex as a AC power source sounds different than the black wire - is that correct?I am asking how that's possible.
PS as an EE I know all about power factor. Hence my question as to how this claim is posible.
Edits: 12/02/11
Gusser,
This is the problem I often have discussed up here. You see, as an E.E. trained individual, not all things in audio will be within your grasp or imagination.
Thats OK, I know you are an OK guy, and have good intentions. Truth is, none of us have all the answers.
I have a good question, after seeing all these posts, are you LESS likely now to order Black as a wire color insulation? I don't know what you would do, but I ceased using that color.
"Don't tell me about the pregnancy, just show me the baby."
Cheers.
Jeff Medwin
Well does Kimber still sell black wire? I mean they paid $100k for a test instrument that proved black wire causes audio signal degradation.So can I still order black wire from Kimber?
Audio huh? In todays world of USB3.0, 10gig Ethernet, HDMI, and countless other commercial HF wire applications, why is this discovery constrained to the audiophile sector?
Edits: 12/02/11
Kimber still uses black insulation on their lower line offerings. Their top line cables all use alternate colors: Select uses white and clear. Even their very affordable Tonik Interconnect uses white and clear, and the their replacement for PBJ uses all clear insulation, which their assemblers absolutely hate because now they have to meter the ends during assembly.Have you checked the latest cat5E and cat 6? Those at my local electronics supply all use white insulation with colored stripes. In fact most come in a gray or white outer insulation. Strange when the original cat 5 I bought was solid colored insulation.
YMMV, but I find it much easier to spend 15 minutes to effect a wire change than to purchase expensive equipment and spend an hour or so to make measurements.
Stu
Edits: 12/05/11
CAT wire follows standard Telco color code, always has. There are many different hues of the colors across manufactures but the basic color code is the same.If there was some issue with black wire, the old Bell Telephone Company would have documented it (perhaps they did). Back in the 1930s Dr.Baker performed extensive, I mean extensive, testing of materials used to build the then modern telephone network - much of which is still in use.
Edits: 12/05/11
what I meant. My original Cat 5 cables all used solid colored insulation, The new Cat 5e and cat 6 use a basic white or clear insulation with the color coding appearing as striping. And then I have WE (ATT)first generation satellite digital uplink cable similar in construction to RG-62: clear insulation used throughout.
Stu
But can you point me to accredited studies that show black wire insulation used in AC electrical power distribution causes an audible effect?"I can hear it" is not a legitimate scientific test.
Where is the test data to prove this effect? Otherwise this is just more audiophile foolery.
Edits: 12/05/11 12/05/11 12/05/11 12/05/11
to your skepticism. I can hear the difference over various insulations and over a range of manufacturers. That's all the proof I need. And the samples I wrote about are simply the tip of the iceberg.
I don't need a chemical analysis to tell when I taste something I don't like. Maybe you do, however.
Stu
TCSS comes in Black, as a color choice. I now use white !
Jeff
Well why would they still sell a product they confirmed is flawed? After all they spent $100k to determine that after it was reported by an audiophile.Can you point me to the warning on their Web site that warns customers about the black wire problem thet are said to have tested and verified?
Edits: 12/02/11
"Well why would they still sell a product they confirmed is flawed?"
A. Because 99.999 percent of the people in audio do not know it, and some will want that particular color. How else does Ray get to afford the Spectrum Analyzers?
Jeff
Well it's a lot more than 99.999% of the hobbiest audio market that does not know this. Try the entire professional electronics industry!
that you aren't speaking only on your behalf?
Stu
Show me otherwise then.Note I said "show me", not "tell me". I have been engineering and installing broadcast facilities which includes mastering facilities for about 30 years and never heard these claims outside of audiophile forums. Nor have I ever seen it documented in professional journals.
Edits: 12/06/11
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