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10khz sq wave with Panasonic ED caps installed..Much cleaner at top of wave form.
Panasonic ED caps installed before and after the choke
10khz sq wave with BG WZ caps before the choke.Notice the ripple at the top left.
Black gates installed before the choke
This is a test I did in my golden tube se40..Those of you that are not familiar with the amp its a CLC PS network and Im using 3 black gate power tanks before the choke and the three panasonic ED after the choke that Jim McShane sells the 820s@250v.Anyway here is the 10khz sq wave result with the BGS before the choke.
It sounded much cleaner with the ED caps as opposed to the BG power tanks..Now some use the excuse that the panasonics have more capacitance.Yes thats true but the 3 caps are in series giving you 1/3 the actual value which by comparison is more but these are the illustrious Black gates and they cost 38usd each as opposed to 6.25 each for the panasonics.The panasonic is unquestionably my favorite electrolytic cap and its easy to see why.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Follow Ups:
So totally different sized caps measured at different levels huh? Forgive me if I don't find this compelling evidence. Also, don't black gates need some run in time?
Don't get me wrong, Panasonics have been a favorite around here for a long time. Motor runs still win though. I'm glad you found a cheaper cap you like but lets compare like for like all the way around before we make sweeping comments.
Brother, talk about what you get when you stir the pot.
Russ
First, if I am running low voltage, the Black Gates are where I start. They are simply silent. When I run high voltages like my Hagerman Clarinet line stage and the Hagerman Cornet 2 phono stage I need 450 volt service levels.
In my estimation I am getting similar black backgrounds with zero grain and grit. I figure the ED's might be the perfect high voltage capacitor. Cheap too...like Black Gates used to be priced.
Cheers ;-)
Thats one more thing in favor of the ED caps..I didnt realize it but I adjusted it to get the best sq wave from both caps and you know when you go higher in power,your getting more output and typically that makes the sq wave worse..I was running the panasonics at a higher level and I kept the BGs within their rating.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Would be to run each at 90 percent rated value and see how they perform. The thing for me is that BG are basically a solid state type critter. Their values do not accomodate high voltage tube gear.
I am discussing currently available stock not stuff you have stashed away for the next project...
Thanks for measuring what I have been hearing. I get blasted by some for saying I find the ED's to sound equivalent to BG's. Now I state that they measure better and sound great.
I appreciate your efforts on this matter. I find these graphs very illuminating.
Cheers!
The settings would imply the Panasonics were tested at twice the voltage. But if the volts/div is 100 volts (for the Panasonics) and you have 3 divisions even a 10X probe is way over what that amp can do. So I have to conclude a 100X probe was used and the amp was tested at 1.125 watts. Now the Black Gates at almost 3 divisions, 50 volts/div, and measured with a 10X probe works out to twenty something+ watts. That sounds about right.
Maybe you should repeat the test at 5 volts/div, use a 1X probe for both, and not adjust for best trace if you want to see a valid test. I’d rather see volts displayed on the scope than frequency too. Just a suggestion because what you have posted could be seen as misleading as it stands. Of course maybe I am seeing it wrong and you can explain things?
Russ
Russ
No probe was used..I used an RCA innerconnect.So that means it was the same for both..You may be able to see it but I have a bnc to RCA on the scope and then I made up an RCA jack with two wires that goes across my 8 ohm 250w load resistor. The same way we did it at wheezer;s house..I never use a multiplier probe and thats why I was way up on the scale..I dont doing it again but I really handicapped the panasonics because the higher you go in power or output,the worse the sq wave looks..If I had gone down that low on the panasonics,I probably would have been scolded..Go over to wheezers and try it..you will see that the higher you go the worst the sq gets..Just use a straight RCA innerconnect.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Lets talk about this pic. I can see you are using channel A, the volts/div appear to be 100, and you are AC coupled. Can you confirm this? You say you were using an RCA cable and measuring across an 8 ohm resistor. I am seeing roughly 3 divisions on the scope meaning a 300 volt peak to peak output, right?
Now 300V/2.8=107 volts RMS. (107 squared)/8=1,431 watts. I don't see how you got that out of that amp. Please help me understand what is going on as I can make no sense of it.
Russ
nt
(iTunes) or (Wilson Benesch ACT2/analog cart - M-Audio Fastrack pro 24/96) - iMac core audio 24/96 -- Toslink - Monarchy DIP - modified Behringer DCX2496 - MSB multichannel volume control - SET triamp Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY bass horn
.
We are just looking for the picture of the waveform at a given frequency so it doesnt really matter where we are set here on scale..If you are testing a voltage of 170vdc on a DVM,whether you do this on the 2000v scale or 200v scale,its going to read the same voltage..In this case we are looking at the picture of a particular waveform at 10khz.It shouldnt matter what scale as long as we can make it out..As said to these guys,going higher in voltage on this particular test only handicaps the particular cap under test.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
That's true but he used the same wire with different V/div settings. One was 50 and the other was 100 V/div.
Russ
I adjusted to get the best sqaure that I could out of the BGS..If I had gone higher voltage on the BGS,it would start keystoning with the BGS maybe because of less capacitance..I had to go down in scale because if I didnt,it didnt look very good for BGS and you would have thought what are trying to do here.The point is,the scale really doesnt mean that much here of what I am conveying..I wanted to show the ripple and If I would used the 100v scale with the Bgs,it would have looked so bad that you wouldnt be able to discern the waveform..
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Just because one type measures better in one respect at one frequency in one particular circuit doesn't mean it is superior. Perhaps if the circuit under test was optimized to work with the parameters of the BG it would ring less than the other.
It is hard to see from the pictures but the ripple at the bottom looks the same whereas the panasonic is more rounded at the top. It also looks like the rise time for the BG may be less.
My point is you can't just throw a component into a circuit and expect it to work ideally. There is just way too much going on and waaaaaay too many variables to run a test like this and declare a winner.
Like I said, interesting but hardly conclusive.
(iTunes) or (Wilson Benesch ACT2/analog cart - M-Audio Fastrack pro 24/96) - iMac core audio 24/96 -- Toslink - Monarchy DIP - modified Behringer DCX2496 - MSB multichannel volume control - SET triamp Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY bass horn
herman
Im not disputing what your saying..What I was trying to convey was you can get these great panasonic caps which are readily available for a small fraction of what the BGS cost and in this instance they performed better.
When I put the motor runs in,the sq wave was almost perfect and they were only 100uf.I had put one on each side of teh chome with no electros in place.What I am going to do is put a single 50uf motorrun on each side of the choke and leave the panasonics in it because the 50uf caps fit under the chasis just fine.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
My SET amps are devoid of electrolytics, ASC oil/film throughout.
(iTunes) or (Wilson Benesch ACT2/analog cart - M-Audio Fastrack pro 24/96) - iMac core audio 24/96 -- Toslink - Monarchy DIP - modified Behringer DCX2496 - MSB multichannel volume control - SET triamp Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY bass horn
Agreed 100%.The only issue sometimes is room in the unit but no argument there on getting rid of the lytics.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
like this
(iTunes) or (Wilson Benesch ACT2/analog cart - M-Audio Fastrack pro 24/96) - iMac core audio 24/96 -- Toslink - Monarchy DIP - modified Behringer DCX2496 - MSB multichannel volume control - SET triamp Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY bass horn
I think the WKZ equate to around 1/4 the uf of the ED.
They are WK..yes lets be fair..The WK were 38 dollars each and the ED s were 6.25 each from Mcshane..120 as opposed to 18 dollars.RU kidding me?I can add a 50ud motor run to each side of the choke with the panasonic ED caps and its almost perfect.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
You're using three 820uf in series compared to three 220uf in series.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
wheezer
I used a pair of 100uf motorruns instead of the 820uf and it was better yet than 220uf or the 820uf,whats your point?..If its a super duper expensive cap,why should the extra capacitance be a big deal? The motor runs I tried one on each side with no 820s or 220 BGS,and it had a purer sine wave than both yet it was much less capacitance than either.I wasnt using all the capacitance anyway as I ran the amp at less than half power so it had plenty for what we were doing..
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Thanks for showing your results. Looking at actual data is refreshing.
While there appears to be some ringing associated with the black gate caps, it also seems that they do a little better job reproducing the square wave. Am I seeing that correctly?
Retsel
No
Look again..the ED is much better because the ringing is gone..In both cases the panasonic EDs were the caps after the choke but before the choke I tried BGS and EDS..they just didn't do as well and they exibited more HF distortion above. 5khz
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
What I meant by my comment is that the front edge of the square wave seems to be a little less rounded with the black gates than with the panasonic caps.
Retsel
Retsel
When you see it on the scope it doesnt look like that..It could be a camera angle..The waveforms were identical other than that ripple on the top left..The amp sounded rippy at higher frequencies with the BGS..Well if you look where that ringing in the waveform is,that explained it..It doesnt have the rippy sound now with the EDs but let me tell you what I did a little bit ago..I put a 100uf motor run in across the 3 caps to the choke and the waveform is perfect other than a tiny tiny bit of ringing on the bottom still..If I put a second 100uf motorrun accross the 3 output caps,it will probably be perfect all the way.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
Retsel
The main issue I was trying to covey here was the 3 panasonic caps were 18 dollars total and the BGs were 114 total..They both fit in the same place and I tried both types in the most critical position at that point being they have no chokes to help and they are directly off the diodes.
Granted the panasonics are bigger but as long as they are doing the job and fit,thats all that matters..I look at the function of a filter cap to help make that rectified power supply as pure as it can be..When I see ringing on the square wave after spending that kind of money,I have a problem with that.The motorruns are in a class by themselves..they are just so so good.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
What make and model of motor runs are you using?
Retsel
More ringing is normally indicative of less damping, in this case suggestive of less resistance for the BGs. While I don't discount the EDs sounded better with those results it could have been more a case of better circuit matching than intrinsic BG inferiority. Some designers intentionally use 'less perfect' devices in power supplies, targeting a specific HF resistance specifically to prevent peaking/ringing
Thats very possible..they sounded ok the BGS,but I would have liked to have heard them in a closer value..Anyway thats pretty kewl that the caps perform so well and 10khz sq for a single ended amp is great.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
T'aint nothin' wrong with good and inexpensive!
Dam straight..here is the thing..The mentality of the Japanese and especially companies like the panasonic is to price dump.They were doing this in the amateur radio market in the early to late 70s with companies like Kenwood and Yaesu and Icom..What they would do is bring stuff our shores of top quality and sell it below cost just to control the market and put the other companies out of business and then they would take over the market..They could afford to do this for two reasons..The Japanese govt would supplement their factories and they would also lower the value of the yen agaisnt the US dollar and that helped their industry.
Now take the ED caps..For a cap to be that good and sell for so little is just unheard of in most instances..Nichicon does this also with the muse caps..Both panasonic and Nichicon are so large that selling at those cheap prices as they do doesnt even phase those companies..Anyway the consumer is the winner here.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
I've been using Panasonics for years. ED, FC and a couple of their other versions. I've found them consistently superior to other caps, especially Black Gates. Quite frankly I've never understood the mystique behind BG.
They are 38usd each.
No matter how stir the pot,you only get out as good as what goes in.Power supplies matter most.
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