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Re: Russian teflons - there seem to be 2 types available. Anyone tried both? Are they basically the same thing in terms of construction and sound?
Cheers.
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I have used the k72n and they sound great as far as detail and focus and the musical notes are seemingly accurate..However when I had gone back to the k40s,I gained realism and smoothness along with all the dryness being gone..They may have a tad more detail the k72s and you notice I said a tad,but I would much rather have smoothness and realism and a 3 dimensional sound over a hair extra detail that may be exaggerated anyway.The k40s are also very detailed..What you may want to try is a combo k40 and k72..Do it sort of like a composite..If I had to buy any teflon caps tho,the russian ones are the best sounding by far.
Hey Mikey, I've gotta say my experience mirrors Andy's to a Tee and as you know I also run ESLs. Years ago I swapped from Infini Wonder Cap Signatures to Russian K40 Pios in my Phono / Pre and was very happy. One day I decided to do a test on the caps I had on hand and the result surprised me. I had made some changes for the better to my Phono stage and used it as the guinea pig. I made up a switch box with about ten different caps and found that the K40s lacked detail and dynamics though they were smooth. Of all things the Wonder Caps sounded the most dynamic and detailed but in comparison to the K72s sounded edgy and irritating within minutes. In this test I also tried other Russian caps including K73s (very honky sounding), K75s and even Vitamin Qs and Jenson Copper Foil in oils.
Bottom line is that my sound system has NEVER sounded so good, so natural, musical and plain unfatiguing. If you've lived with ESLs you know just how big a call this is but it's true! My take is that it does very much depend on the balance of the rest of the system (as you eluded to). I think that caps are often chosen (unwittingly) to balance up flaws elsewhere and two wrongs don't make a right. Eg I initially preferred the K40s when my system sounded a little edgy but having fixed the root cause I now much prefer the K72 Teflons. Incidentally I also liked the Vitamin Qs and Jensons ... just not as much.
Regards,
Naz
I know where you coming from..Also Naz you must understand that your running SET amps on your electrostats and every set amp I have heard is somewhat lax in the high end for detail so that could explain where the teflon would help a bit there.
I dont mind sacrificing a little detail and yes the teflons have a slight bit more but I didnt like the 2 dimensional affect and I didn't feel the overall response was elegant as it should be.
Trust me Mike there's no roll off in the top end with my SETs so I’m taking them out of the equation. In fact I've been so happy with my 845s that I haven't touched them in years, not even to swap out the original Jenson (Copper Foils in Oil) in the one and only coupling position between first and second stages. I really hate coupling caps and try to avoid them wherever possible in favour of DC.
The test I conducted was on my Phono / Pre and like I said the result really surprised me, partly because I'd never experienced such a big difference (I put that down to the position being so early in the audio chain) but also because of the result. In previous tests I too thought that the K72s were weighted slightly toward the top end but in this test I actually agonised over whether they sounded a veiled in comparison to the Wonder Caps! The decider was that the latter proved to be a little irritating with time and overall I thought that the K72's were the most balanced (though not perfect). I’d go as far as describing them as being unexciting but I think this is a good thing.
To me the K40's sound great with circuits such as CF or SRPP, anything that takes the OP from a cathode (which tends to sound a bit edgy) but the K72s come into their own when the drive was taken from the plate … if this makes any sense to you.
Also looking over my notes again I've noticed that I described the K75s as fairly well balanced, strong in the mids and with a slight emphasis on the top end while the K73s were lacking deep bass and very emphasised mid bass and mids to the point of being honky sounding. I liked the Vitamin Qs, mainly for their midrange and I remember the reason I used the Jensons in my 845s was that I slightly preferred their overall balance at the time.
Regards,
Naz
I can go along with that..What I found on the k72 was they were very dynamic and this was in the eico hf87 and it is cathode bypass but its all .1 couplers and when I had gone back to the k40s,it was softer and more real..The martin logans are so detailed and revealing as it is and I have the latest panels with the special coatings and they really were wonderful with the k40s and the vitaman Q .33 decouplers..It just depends on the amp.
K72 is just another name for FT1-FT3 series. At one point in the 70s, Russian electronic industry switched to uniform nomenclature for all capacitors. Instead of names MBM, KSO, etc. all capacitors got uniform names beginning with K, with 2 digit number after K specifying dielectric and electrode types. Thus FT became K72.
Many (but not all) newer K72 have hermetically sealed steel body with hot dip silver-plated steel conducting rods and glass insulators. Older FT have aluminum bodies that are not hermetically sealed, and their leads are made of copper or brass.
Although some don't like K72 for their steel bodies and conductors, I did not hear any sonic difference between the two types. In sound quality, Russian teflon capacitors are miles ahead of anything else that I tried.
newer K72 have hermetically sealed steel body with hot dip silver-plated steel conducting rods and glass insulators. Older FT have aluminum bodies that are not hermetically sealed, and their leads are made of copper or brass.> > > >
Right. The FT-3 are smaller as well, which is useful in restricted space. also lighter. Casing seems aluminium
> > Although some don't like K72 for their steel bodies and conductors, I did not hear any sonic difference between the two types.> >
If there is any difference it is indeed small. I think I perceived a slight preference for the FT-3 but I wouldn't swear I could tell in a blind test.
> > In sound quality, Russian teflon capacitors are miles ahead of anything else that I tried. > >
Very much so - I'm not a fan of Russian PIO caps.
Andy
I think it depends on the speakers you are using and equipment..Electrostatic speakers are very revealing as well as horns and the teflons are nice caps but they are a bit edgy sounding and on some speakers and thats why you have to be selective..You say your not a fan of russian pios? Do you like vitaman Qs by chance? Those are my favorite but I started doing a teflon pio mix and maybe that will take the edginess of the teflons off my speakers.
teflons are nice caps but they are a bit edgy sounding and on some speakers and thats why you have to be selective..> >
I wouldn't say they are bright or edgy - they do have a very extended treble.
> > You say your not a fan of russian pios? Do you like vitaman Qs by chance?> >
I've never found any PIO caps I preferred to teflon. I haven't tried the exotic stuff. I prefer transformers for the same outlay. I did find that superficially PIOs seemed to have more life and dynamics, but careful listening showed they masked fine detail.
< < Those are my favorite but I started doing a teflon pio mix and maybe that will take the edginess of the teflons off my speakers. > >
I did several experiments with combining capacitors - Russian PIO, polystyrene, teflon. I found at the end of it that single teflons were still the best sounding, followed by the polystyrene - I didn't find any better cocktails. I'm not much of a believer in bypassing, and I'm not a believer in dramatic changes during supposed "burn-in".
Well I will give you credit..At least you like a good quality cap in the russian military caps..I still prefer the k40 on my electrostatics but then everyone hears different.
andy
Thats fine and your entitled to your beliefs but if you were to try the pio caps on a revealing speaker like the electrostatic or a good horn,you will find the edginess I have found and I know they aren't masking in my amps nor does the test gear show they are masking any detail..Even on the real time analyzer when comming thru the speakers ,they are flat to well beyond the range of audibility.I guess maybe in both out cases both type of caps need more break in time.
Mike:
I believe that at least in some instances the "edginess" of teflon capacitors is coming not from the capacitors, but from other things. Highly transparent capacitors just reveal that. For example, less than stellar tweeters have this edginess, or it could be in a recording. I compared K40 to K72 in the same circuit, and K40 was very obviously rolling the top end. This masking of distortion at the top end could be perceived as smoothness.
I would go along with except for one thing..I have the equipment to sweep the amp and preamps and I have done that and I can measuere IM and THD and all of them fall within spec to the very high freq ranges uisng the k40s and even the mbms..Now the electrostatic speakers are anything but edgy..As a matter of fact the mids and highs are what they are famous for..Dont get me wrong.I like the teflons but they had a few problems and one being kind of 2 dimensional sounding and kind of edge on certain material..It may not be the cap but I think a mix of the two might be very interesting..
I will tell you what I have found tho..The .1@1000v k40s sound better than the 600v or 400v caps of the same type..I wish the teflons were smaller because that I could put them in places where they are most needed.
What you say is very reasonable, and you definitely had more experience with different types. I only tried one type K40, .47x400 V, against .22x600 V teflon, so difference could be due to different capacitance. I will try higher voltage K40s as you suggest.
Also i have noticed that the pios and the teflons both have a long break in period..BTW I was told the russian k40 and the teflon k72 both use the same conductor which is reasonable.
Someone on here took one of the russian teflons out of the case and put it in wood..That would be interesting..I want to do more experimenting.
I change my assessment of what I like many times..I dont know if you remember but I use to hate KT90s because they would distort and sag and generally be harsh...What I was doing was biasing them as a conservative kt88 at like 65ma and that was where I got into trouble..David Manley told me that it would be a direct drop in for the kt88..Well going on that assumption,it sounded terrible in the mac mc60s but after lowering the neg bias voltage,WOW!! Now its one of my favorite high power beam tubes..In the top 3.
I disassembled FT, K72-6 and K40Y caps, and indeed they all have aluminum foil of the same kind. With K72, after removing steel case (which can be easily done with sidecutter) and studs, I wrapped the naked capacitor in several layers of thread sealing tape and encased the whole thing in heatshrink. Then I sealed flexible wire leads with RTV silicone, thus making a sealed and non-magnetic capacitor. As I said, I did not hear much difference between modified and standard K72.
I have heard about long breaking in for teflon caps too, but someone at the tweak asylum said that this is true for only AN and V-caps, but not for Russian stuff. Anyway, I fried all my teflon and PIO caps for 2 months at the output of transistor receiver, so cannot say whether this is true.
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