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In Reply to: RE: link posted by Bill Way on August 04, 2014 at 18:36:25
I wouldn't touch any of those tapes with a plug nickel.
My guess is that those are copies of tapes, or maybe even copies from CDs, dressed up to look "important".
:)
Follow Ups:
You don't get 100% positive feedback on TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND transactions by pulling scams. "Reel-lady" (Deborah Gunn) is one of the long-time denizens of eBay's open reel site (I've bought from her often) and a credit to the "community."
I have not bought any of the safety copies from Reel Lady or from other sellers that seem to everywhere on eBay these days as I also have not seen enough credibility in the statements that the tapes are legitimate. From my own experience with master tapes or their copies I'm suspect of any that do not have documentation on the tape boxes themselves.
The tapes may have been bought as pancakes. Their metal reels or flanges may have been added later to add legitimacy. I can't remember the specific title (Boston S/T?) of a 7.5 IPS reel that Reel Lady claims was from a record company executive, but it was on the Columbia or Epic labels where the commercial issued tape should have been at 3.75 IPS. It appeared odd that it was a 4 track tape so it may have been made for compatibility instead of for sound quality so I did not bid.
I have bought a legitimate production reel from a seller in South America and am satisfied with it's audio quality. I have met one person who bought (at least one) safety copy from someone in Florida who felt it was legit and was satisfied with the sound quality.
If these tapes had conclusive proof as being real (pun intended) I'm certain that they will sell for a lot more. The first lot of master tapes (20-30) from the jazz label Concord looked to be legitimate and they were all bought by one buyer who had something like 15,000 as their eBay feedback. From what I could tell all the feedback came as a buyer.
I am not aware of Reel Lady's ability to test the raw tapes to determine which brand could be. It would require a lot of experience and test equipment.
I have bought many tapes both two track and four track from Reel Lady since she began selling on eBay and have always left positive feedback.
I've bought commercial prerecorded reel tapes from reel-lady and they were fine. But I'd be really skeptical about a so-called "safety master" made on a modern tape like Emtec. And skeptical because I've made 15 ips 2-track copies of CDs that sound great. How could one definitively determine the source of the recording?
It would be best to hear from a respected member of the tape community who has actually bought and listened to these. Are there any on this list?
Not trying to be snarky, but think it through. If one of them tests out to be the holy grail of tapedom, that proves only that one of them does. And if all of them do -- and this is known in advance -- it will simply double or triple the selling price.
And what's wrong with a modern tape by Emtec? A well-done dupe on 468 sure beats hell out of getting a safety master made on Ampex 406 or 456 and suffering through its inevitable sticky shed. As one poster notes, a dupe that's several generations away from an original master can sound altogether awesome. I know this for a fact, myself.
So why don't you bid on one ore more and give us your feedback. That's what I'm going to do if I win one, which is a big "if." Won't help the other tape nuts, though, since it only applies to these particular tapes and the auctions will be over :-)
Michael22 mentions, "But I'd be really skeptical about a so-called "safety master" made on a modern tape like Emtec".
All modern tape means is the tape is likely a copy of a safety master, or was run off by a studio in recent times (the last few years) on EMTEC, since almost all studios using analog tape are now using EMTEC. The supplies of 3M 996 or any of the Quantegy formulations are long gone (have been comsumed or used up), let alone any of the older scotch formulations such as 206, 207, 226, 227, 208 and 250. And even if the copy was not run off by a studio, but run off by a private individual, as long as he used good equipment the sound quality should still be fantastic.
As most of you likely already know, the older 3M formulations mentioned should all be still good except the 226 and 227. If you buy a safety master on those scotch formulations, you will have to bake it, and them make a copy on fresh tape.
Almost all of the time, a safety master is a copy of either a dupication master, a production master, or a broadcast master; never a session master, and seldom an EQ master since the session parts seldom fit on a single reel, and would include all the outtakes, partial sessions etc, that a typical audience would not want to hear.
Detemining the production on a given safety master is really tough if not impossible to do. As Dave noted, your best bet is to give it a listen and see how it sounds, but even then, since you don't have the session master or production master avaiable to compare it to, still a very tough call to make.
Besides being the 1st gen, and having the excellent sound, the session masters can be good fun to listen to since its not cleaned up through production, so it "beams you back Scotty" to the time when the recording was made. You hear all the wise cracks, the partial takes, the joking between musicians and the producer etc. all captured on tape at that point in time, usually long ago. If you have a single malt, it can transform you back in time for a short while. Every once in a while, some of these partial takes or outtakes do make it to commercial release, but not often.
Having said the ablove, even having a 4th gen copy of a safety master is still going to give you better sound quality than any commerical release including most of the hi rez down loads.
This now brings this full circle since there is a bit of a chance you are taking buying these safety masters. The chance has to be minimal though, otherwise folks would not continue to buy them.
Now if we can get more studios to unplug their compressors, and effects boxes from the signal chain, be it analog or digital, we would get that much closer to the sound of the actual recorded event. But that is a topic for another time.
Happy listening.
J
i'm not going to bid on one because 1) i have too much stuff already; 2) the tapes are beyond my budget; 3) the provenance of these tapes has not been verified; and, 4) i haven't heard convincing feedback on the quality of these tapes.
somewhat off-topic: an audiophile friend just added an Esoteric SACD player to his system, and, frankly, the sound quality is extremely good. one of the disks i played was a copy of the great 2-track Westminster tape of Stravinsky's L'Histoire du Soldat. amazing sound quality, even on the CD transfer.
Was that the High Definition Tape Transfers release? HDTT works from 4-track and 2-track 7½ ips commercial releases, and sometimes from 2-track 15 ips copies, such as the Klipsch recordings. They do an excellent job.
The Westminster 2-track 7½ ips commercial release pops up on eBay from time to time. Grab it if you can. It was recorded in Carnegie Hall. I would love to hear a 15 ips release of this recording.
I'd like to think you're right. But there are some issues. First, several of them are described as Emtec 468 mastering tape, even though Emtec didn't make tape back then (since Emtec didn't exist) AND the reels and boxes are a variety of styles and brands AND 468 tape (whether BASF, Agfa, or Emtec) didn't exist when Fritz Reiner conducted the CSO. Also, there are two tapes (Decca - Rite of Spring, and RCA - Also Sprach Zarathustra), both with Scotch/3M boxes and reels, which both have a nice flat pack but both have a discontinuity at about 1.5 inches from the hub. I find this odd - two tapes from different record companies, identical reels, and identical discontinuities. Further, the labelling sucks, which a top pro recording engineer wouldn't do.
All of these factors would indicate that these are not original safety masters.
So, as I said in my earlier post, it's likely that these are copies from "somewhere". To give Reel-Lady the benefit of the doubt, she may not know the history of these tapes. Still, it's her site claiming they're on Emtec 468.
:)
I'll post her response assuming I get one.
I can think of any number of reasons, legitimate and otherwise, why these tapes exist. For starters, I see no reason why a safety master need be made at the same time as the original. Maybe the original was on tape that's subject to sticky shed syndrome. Maybe the performance was being reissued and the reissuing organization thought it wise to make a dupe (or just wanted one).
I've bid on several "safety masters" (none offered by reel-lady) but not yet won one. Assuming the seller has flawless feedback, there's precious little danger of losing your money. If the tape you buy isn't up to snuff -- for ANY reason -- a threat of negative feedback will get your money back fast. I've bought hundreds of tapes on eBay and NEVER had the slightest problem getting a refund, including shipping costs, for a bummer.
Exactly.
ET
Several on this post have made some valid points. And the comment on lineage, woulde be impossible to track down or detail out, since it also applies to sometimes many in the industry. When a studio gets a prodiuction dub, the assumption is made its as close as possible to the session parts. Sometimes this is the case, other times its just a copy of a copy of a copy that gets sent.
"and for most of us, the actual lineage of these tapes will probably never be known"
I spent a number of years at studios in the Hollywood area, and have orig session masters, production masters, production dups, and safetly masters. Some at 15 and some at 30. The sound quality does vary widely, but regardless, any of these versions are better than any commercially released format the public would normally have access to.
So while the "safety masters" sold on ebay may not be one or two generations removed from the production master (they are likely further removed from the session master), they are still much better sonics than any other format available to the individual interested in the best possible sound through analog tape.
best
@mcgjohn,
Stereo mix master dubs appeal to me. Would a stereo mix master -- a 2-channel affair just leaving the mastering house, for example -- be considered a session master, production master,...?
Thanks.
Vbr,
Sam
"Dave, individual production masters of original studio label productions were made for most countries around the world. During the 1980s many record companies, particularly in Eastern Europe, disposed of their distribution masters after their being digital archived and these analog masters have ended up in private collections in North America and Europe. Most were on tape stock that was not holding up well with age, so a number of production copies were made from them."
As Megjohn notes above -- see his last paragraph -- these copies are likely far better sounding than "any other format available ...." Which is why they keep getting snatched up at higher bids than I have been able to match to date :-)
But I'm going to keep trying.
It's worth noting that the tape stock used for many of the ones being sold by reel-lady (Emtec 468) is REALLY good tape and not cheap.
The name "safety masters" is used very loosely these days and for most of us, the actual lineage of these tapes will probably never be known.
Frankly, I believe that knowing the exact history of these kinds of tapes can only drive up the price.
If the new owner wants to, it would be good fun to research this stuff after you've bought it.
What is important to me is the sound. If the sound of well known recording is good enough (better than any media), they are worth the money.
If not, than you're just buyin' the braggin rights!
I think you may be right. There are quite a few inconsistencies, like the 1964 Heifetz Brahms Sextet on RMG-911. Actually, I suspect she just got a huge batch of tapes and tried to figure out what they were.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
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