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220.255.1.126
Can spend up to 2k.
Should I go for a tascam, teac, studer, otari, technics, or something else?
Welcome all suggestions!
Follow Ups:
Dear Jerome,
It looks like you got lost as this thread went running off in various directions. Here's my take on your original question. BTW, I'm an amateur who has been helping out in a studio for a couple of years, which is just long enough to know I don't know squat.
All Studers I've heard sound terrific and have a build quality second to none. Be prepared for very high cost when you need some parts. Terrific ain't cheap.
The Otari MS5050B-II and Technics 1500 can be good machines if they have good heads, are in proper alignment, and don't have marginal or failing electrolytics. I have not heard Dan Schmalle's Bottlehead repro amps on these, but friends have, and they say it takes them up to Studer level sonics, or beyond.
I'm not expert on the 1500, but have been renewing an Otari, and am impressed with both its build quality and generally easy access to the guts. Also, parts availability and cost are plusses - there are lots of these decks out there that were pretty beat up and sell for a song, so, if you have the room, a spare parts machine is a practical option. I'll be adding the Bottlehead repro amp kit at some point, and will report when it's done.
So, a working Otari for $200-800ish, plus relapped heads, plus various parts, plus reels, plus tape, plus an MRL alignment tape, plus the Bottlehead repro amp kit ($800) can give you a pretty great sounding reliable 1/4" half-track deck that can also play back 1/4-track tapes, and be in your budget. Or you can look for a B-III version with low hours and add a better repro amp later on. Note that the Otari's have only balanced XLR connections (with pin 3 hot BTW).
I won't tell anyone else what speeds to use. I find the 15ips 1/4" half-track format a pretty good compromise for getting that "tapeyness" sound into mixes while adding a tolerably low level of noise.
I won't tell anyone to re-cap either, but I do it for my old gear. I never heard a piece of gear that sounded better as its electrolytics' capacitance decreased, while their ESR climbed. There is a great variety of available capacitors, so it's pretty easy to find caps that will restore the circuit's original sound pretty closely. Also, cap failures in power supplies *can* result in ancillary damage, either from leaked electrolyte or from explosive damage, and that's an expense I like to avoid.
WW
New Orthophonic High Fidelity
Isn't it great how threads can get "hijacked"
One poster did "correctly" ask the question - what do you want to do with a deck. Good question: Do you only want to playback - or record and playback? If record - just in your listening room - or might you want to do some "location" recording down the road.
If you don't have any "reel" ideas at this point and are just thinking of "getting into tape" then I always suggest one of the "pro-sumer" Revox machines - from the A77 up thru the PR99. They can be had relatively cheaply; work VERY dependably and (reasonably priced) parts will always be available for them. If you just want to listen, then as you are probably aware, "firmware" (ie - prerecorded material) is getting (or already there) expensive. If you want to record - new blank tape is up to $50 a reel.
I find 15ips perfectly acceptable, in fact have heard (and recorded) some 7.5ips that is downright scary.
Getting the best "sound" in playback is another story - involving the "right" transport / head / and playback electronics. I've found that the playback electronics (and to a lesser degree the record electronics) to have the major sonic failings of the "chain".
In any case - good luck
Charles
quote.........."We are a lot of people that do NOT really consider Otari being among the Pro decks."
Now that statement is truly funny. I have to hand it to you, put a big smile on my face.
The MTR-15 was one of the most sophisticated decks ever offered to the studios, with complete auto alignment for 4 different tapes at 4 different speeds, 12 inch reel capability, interchangeable head blocks and guides for half inch tape or quarter inch tape, and three 8086 procs controlling transport movements.
Otari is professional. Most users being broadcasting stations. Those machines live far harder lives than any studio for hire. Because they are ran hard until something breaks and then they get repaired and major maintenance done. Old school tape based FM program automation decks living the hardest long hours use with minimal maintenance.
My preference is for machines that are 10.5" capable.
I have had much experience running Teac X-2000R's. Lovely machines. Plenty of options.
I own 2 Teac X-10R's. They are easy on tape. No 1/2 track option. Make sure you have a "Teac" belt; not an aftermarket replacement. I've had to do quite a bit of work on both of them, mechanically and electroically; but, I got them for cheap.
I mostly use 2 Revox PR99MkI's biased for SM911. 1/4" 1/2 track. For consumer use (archiving LP's, etc.) 7.5 ips saves tape and still sounds great. Parts/service was/is expensive for these; but, best recordings I can currently make at my house. I can do 24/96kHz; but, prefer tape.
I also have a Magnecord somewhere in the garage, which I'll rebuild one day for poops and giggles.
I'd by a Technics just because J-Corder does some awesome things with them. I'd also by a brand new Otari; but, that's well beyond $2K as I find most Studers are, at least, the ones that are guaranteed to be in great shape. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough?
BTW I'm starting to think it was a mistake entering the asylum. Tirading and name calling is an irritating and needless distraction on any friendly and education forum and is ultimately the responsibility of the moderators to weed out. How are certain folks allowed to get away with this, repeatedly??? Without such controls in place, respectable persons move on.
Be qware that some people try to present themselves as respectable people with a lot of knowledge but only when the right people come by they will be revealed as scam with nothing to have "it in".
Are moderators also supposed to sort out these "elements"?
And what do "respectable" people do when someone has a vendetta aimed at them?
"dolph"
Dolph, you obviously have experience and knowledge, as do others here. Why not let that be your loudest voice? If others truly have a vendetta, let them speak to the wind. Credibility does not need to war against naysayers. It's reputation is earned quietly, daily. Why not state your case and let it be? Some will agree. Some won't. Such is the nature of things.
On 30 ips: Your comments have prompted me to take a closer look into the matter of FS and tape speed. And, they would have even if you had simply stated your case and left it at that.
And, do help out Braxus if you can. I remember him from another forum and retain a high opinion of him; never known him to be rude or arrogant, just a fan of the tape medium.
Thanks WOStanton for making the re-direction.
Getting back to the poster jeromelang's original post, it appears the basic questions were never answered, so one has to wonder what level of interest was there, vs. was there an interest in stirring up the pot to stage alternative opinions from other posters.
A few side notes,
1. many of the pro machines offer 7.5, 15 and 30. Some even offer four speeds and include 3 3/4. The user can then try both higher speeds to form his/her own opinions, which may agree with some and and disagree with others.
2. regardless of the machine purchased, would strongly suggest re-resistoring the power supply when doing a recap with metal films at a minimum. Almost all machines used carbon film from the factory. Power supply noise on the rails will go down as can be seen on a scope. Would also suggest replacing the ceramic or metalized PS bypass caps with film and foil (if metalized were even used from factory). In many cases, there are none.
3. Very, very few folks (audiophiles or non-auduophiles) outside the studio world have heard a 15 ips master let alone a 30. Most of the safety dubs offered for sale are 15 ips, so that would likely be the target of any new open reel enthusiast, unless they plan on doing their own recording.
And we have not even touched the world of mics, mic pres, and effects boxes. All have a dramatic effect on the sound, some, much bigger than 15 vs. 30 debate.
Happy listening....and/or happy recording.
John
This American recapping trend is most often a huge misunderstanding resulting in ruining a lot of gear.
When recapping you completely change the intracicuital interaction.
You risk that you in fact have to change ALL components with influence on the sound quality to get it all right again after recapping.
Anyway; what pro decks have 4 speeds?
I am aware that a lot of pro decks were offered with the choise between different combinations of two, or even three, speeds (with no jumps but half/double).
I just don't remember to have seen that many pro decks offering 4 speeds in the same unit.
The reason that so many different suggestions have come to mind is a very unprecise OP question.
If OP really needs advises, he better sharpen up.
"dolph"
not recapping results in compressed dynamics, extra noise, and reliability issues. have compared re-capped vs. no recap. not a huge sonic change....
4 speed decks include Studer A820, Otari MTR-15, Otari MTR-20, and maybe a few others I missed. I have never used my decks at those slow speeds, so can't comments on sonics, but if a person were looking for a deck with all speeds, they are available.
best
John
May I correct you:
Not recapping may sometimes result in.................... when quality of components from the start were not sorted out the best way or if the audio equipment has been stored for very long periods.
We are a lot of people that do NOT really consider Otari being among the Pro decks.
But hey, that's your decision in your post.
Yep, the A820 is a beauty with 4 speeds.
But are there anymore PRO decks offering this feature?
Maybe but I don't really remember them.
3-speeds sure. But 4-speeds?
"dolph"
=
I need to clarify and correct my earlier post about you being a newbie.That post was in error. At the time, I thought I was replying to a reply written by the OP (jeromelang), not to a respondent (you), so I took your reply as being from the OP. Obviously, this was an error on my part.
Hopefully, it wasn't the trigger for the debate between you and the dolphin!
As long as y'all are debating the value of 15 ips vs 30 ips... I think it can go either way, depending on the machine, the number of tracks to be mixed down, the high frequency content involved, the high end detail desired, etc.
We all "get" the issues with LF response at 30 ips being "all over the map" and dropping off; and that some machines do a better job of managing it than others. IIRC (it's been a long time), head design plays a key role in this regard - some are better than others. Gap width, pole design, and all that other stuff that I don't really know anything about.
I DO know that the instant you want to mix down 8 or 16 or 24 tracks, all other things being equal, you'll get the best results from high signal levels and max s/n with low distortion, narrow gaps and minimal gap scatter, and high tape speed.
As life would have it, high frequencies benefit from narrow gaps, while low frequencies benefit from wider gaps.
So, yes, 30 ips IS superior to 15 ips, just as 15 is superior to 7.5; but the design of the heads becomes even more important as we reach for the faster speeds. At least, that's what I learned in "tape recorder physics 101". :)
Not sure if any of this applies to a newbie who just wants to buy a good tape deck - for as yet unknown applications. THIS is what is puzzling and a bit irritating about so many replies for advice: The OP hasn't even described the intended application, yet, many people are ready to give advice about what to buy.
:)
Edits: 02/05/12
The Studer A80 is the best BUT replacement parts and especially heads for a Studer are not cheap. Most existing Studer heads either new or used are in pro formats. If you're looking to play 4 track, 1/4 inch pre recorded tapes then trying to find a 1/4 track head for 1/4 inch tape on a Studer is gona be difficult. JRF I'm sure will be glad to make you any format you want but get out your wallet. Most good, modern recording on 1/4 inch tape are gona be 1/2 track, stereo. The IEC-DINN spec heads are better than the American. They are a full .2" wide compared to .180 for the American. If you are on a budget then I would go Techniks or Otari. Otari is still making machines I understand. The Techniks machine is nice but it's very special direct drive DC capstan motor has some issues regarding replacement parts. Ray
"The gift of imagination is a gift of the Gods imparted to a few who receive innumerable kicks in the a$$ their entire life." Le Corbusier (Charles-Édouard Jeanneret)
You can get plenty R2R deck for that sum.
My personal recommendation is to go for a 1/2-track 7.5ips - 15ips pro deck.
The reason for Pro is to get a deck in much less need of service over time.
The reason for 1/2-track is the quality of sound.
Same for speeds. Sound Quality.
30ips is not really usefull unless you run a studio. And it's close to waste of tape compared to 15ips. You loose some bass on 30ips compared to less speed.
With 1/2 track you will miss almost all the pre-recorded tapes as they mostly are made for 1/4-track decks.
I take that you are going for a deck capable of recording and playing back with high quality sound since you from the very beginning are ready to invest $2k.
Brand and model naming can come later.
First you consider the questions from the other posts and the suggestion from my post.
;-)
"dolph"
IME 30 ips is far superior to 15.
"IME 30 ips is far superior to 15."
Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about being a newbie.
You might think so because you lack experience using these high speed decks.
But be aware that the FR moves one octave for each doubling of speed.
This means that you will miss all the deep notes on 30ips.
Since you at 15ips already have no noise issues, lots of dynamics and headroom up to multiple frequecies beyond human hearing, I see not much advantages in 30ips.
Good luck with your entry to open reel recordings.
"dolph"
Co-founded Classic Records in 1994
Production co-ordinator for Alto Analogue audiophile reissues and Argenta box set 1996-1998
Founded Groove Note Records in 1998
Joint partner in Original Recordings Group since 2008
- Am willing to wager I've heard many many more original master tapes at 15 and 30 ips then you have and of material you can only dream about.
- Have worked for nearly 20 years with one of the top mastering engineers in the world who BTW agrees with me re 15 vs 30 ips
- Several of my original Groove Note recordings are mixed down to both 15 and 30 ips and I'm able to base my opinions on comparisons not just of the tape but also vs 24/96 and DSD formats as we use them all
- I listen to real master tapes of music I have produced professionally played back on serious working machines professionally maintained and serviced in a professional environment.
- I also own an ATR102 reconditioned and reserviced by the techs from Bernie Grundman Mastering and hot rodded direct from the playback heads to my Statement line stage bypassing all the internal electronics. The IC is custom built by George Cardas. I also have a separate 1/2 inch head for the many 1/2 inch masters I listen to at both 15 and 30 ips.
I've been working (and living) with tape for almost 20 years. Who are the real 'newbies'?
Good for you.I wonder howcome you are NOT aware of this fact about high speed issues.
If you have followed me on different fora through the last decade, you would have noticed that I have been producing and tape operating master tapes ad hoc in Denmark and Sweden since my first gig in the 70's.
I have Lyrec and Studer decks of my own, both fully serviced by engineers from the respective factories manufacturing the decks.
Everything about reproduced audio is based on compromises.
High Speed recordings also compromises the quality.Are you in doubt of that, then you lack experience.
That's pretty simple.I'd use 30ips if the music is symphonic without paukes, tubas, organs and other low frequescy instruments.
Never with rythmic jazz or modern electric amplified music.
Go figure.
"dolph"
Edits: 02/03/12
"High Speed recordings also compromises the quality."
I never claimed 30 ips was perfect. I only said better than 15 ips.
"I wonder howcome you are NOT aware of this fact about high speed issues."
I never tried to elevate my opinion to the level of fact. You're the one doing so. My listening experiences of 30 ips vs 15 ips differ from yours. Other mixing and mastering engineers with vast experience also agree with me.
"Are you in doubt of that, then you lack experience. That's pretty simple."
Don't be so dogmatic and dismissive of others who disagree with you.
"I'd use 30ips if the music is symphonic without paukes, tubas, organs and other low frequescy instruments. Never with rythmic jazz or modern electric amplified music."
Once again, I know many excellent engineers who would disagree with you about that as well.
..............and by the way, I don't like when people brag about things that OBVIOUSLY is beyond their league.
"dolph"
Since you seem to be such an expert?
Did you record them on your DAW? LOL
Seemingly, you joined the club of ignorants .............. or are you just a member of honour?
If you are in doubt of facts, like some other people here, then read other posts from me in this thread with links of enlightment to you.
If you can?
"dolph"
LOL.
I would never ever reveal my anonymity on the web for someone like you or the other f*ckh*ads around this thread.
Never.
"dolph"
Your true identity? I've ruled out Dale Carnegie and Will Rogers.
I posted an opinion on 30 ips that differed from your own.
You responded by insinuating I was a 'newbie' with little or no experience. I replied by listing my actual background in the recording business with real companies and dates listed plus some additional notes for context.
I've been producing and reissuing audiophile quality software (LP, SACD, CD, 24K CD, XRCD) for almost 20 years and have been privileged to listen to some of the finest master tapes of the analogue era. I'm not an engineer but my opinions are based on extensive listening to scores of 30 and 15 ips masters in one of the world's top mastering studios. That's not bragging, that's just stating the facts.
BTW Is insulting the other person the only way for you to make your point?
http://www.endino.com/graphs/http://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/analog-only/30ips-15-ips-mastering-282941/
http://www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=907
You just go on looking for more educational stuff for your skills to improve, as they need to.
As for the support group you had in this thread, I don't give a hoot about them.
In particular "must" is just a guy with a lot of vendettas.I respect your work in the bussiness.
But one thing is making a living out of it; another thing is to make the best without any concern about making a living."dolph"
Edits: 02/05/12
Vendetta, me? Why, yes I did, but traded in for a BMW. I think European cycles are more my style.
What does a dolphin drive/ride? A Danish bike?
What does bikes have to do with this you moran?
I prefer my BMW GSpot but occasional I miss my Ducatis, my Guzzis, my Morinis, my MV's, my Laverdas, my Derbi, my Lambretta and a few more.
What's it to you?
Did you read my links to get a little wiser on the subject?
"dolph"
Dolph, please, this is a family forum.
Could you at least tell me that you from now on will look into the issues about 30ips so that you know a bit about the subject before you make these kind of statements, which, by the way, are completely irrelevant for the OP?
I don't really care who is behind a nick when I know it's bullshit anyway.
"dolph"
Groovenoter, it is beneficial to know with whom you are conversing. Niklasthedolphin's curmudgeonly pontifications are the postings of Denmark's version of Cliff Claven from the television series "Cheers", but without the warmth, charm or intentional humor. Picture him at the end of the bar with a laptop quaffing a double Gammel Dansk with a Tuborg back. He can safely post anonymously about decades of audio experience and how superior his aging 65 year old golden ears are. Then you can see the unintentional ironic humor when he dismisses people that "brag about things that OBVIOUSLY is beyond their league."
Please don't let this one incident ruin your opinion, ... Some of us know you, and are well aware of your vast experience and impressive background.
You know you could have just told him, "I brought you Jacintha, bitch!"
I hope to see you around more. :)
before decidng on a deck, u really need to determine what you are going to play first. pre recorded 1/4 tracks, or half tracks or master dubs?
Once u have that answer, then you can begin your search
I picked up a Teac 4010 at a church garage sale for 5 bucks, looked brand new. (Turned out, the belt was broke, replaced it, works perfect!)
Can't go wrong with Teac, and from the posts below, parts are more easy to come by than some other brands.
I'm debating whether to keep or sell mine (as I don't really use RTR)
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