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Tape Trail

Barclay-Crocker

67.204.145.10

Since ebay prices of BC tapes seem to have, for the most part, descended from their 17th-century-dutch-tulip-like prices, I'm curious as to what others think of their sonics, sans Dolby. I don't own very many (about 15), but for the most part, I'm not as offended by the highs without a Dolby unit as I thought I might be-in fact, I could say that they seem to have a bit more 'sparkle' on the top end without the processing. Certainly, there's no bad-RBCD-style teeth grinding going on. Anyone else?

FWIW, I have a couple of inexpensive Dolby units (Teac AN-60, Integrex), and I prefer the sound without them in the system.

"dammit"

Follow Ups:

RE: Barclay-Crocker - Dave Pogue 19:38:35 07/30/09 (9)
I have about 50 Dolby tapes (B-C and other) and find them to be a mixed bag sonically. Some of them do sound okay sans Dolby decoding, but most don't. After giving up on outboard decoders for various reasons, I'm using a Teac A2300SD with built-in Dolby. Trouble is, of the 50, I play fewer than 10 with any regularity and I certainly don't plan on getting any more. My non-Dolby tapes sound much better on my Otari than the Dolbyized ones sound through the Teac.

I think I'm talking myself into selling the Teac AND the B-Cs :-)
- RE: Barclay-Crocker - Peter Breuninger 07:09:52 08/14/09 (1)
  I have most, if not all, of the BC catalog and find that about 80% are very good. I use the Concord DBA-10 Dolby unit. It's the only one (I've found) that does not add a layer of grit to the sound.
  
  Peter
  - RE: Barclay-Crocker - Dave Pogue 08:10:08 08/14/09 (0)
    That's a surprise. It sure LOOKS like something from Fisher-Price :-)
- Forgot to paste..... - powermatic 09:38:12 08/01/09 (0)
  You're not the only one who finds the Teac dolby units less than satisfying. Below is an excerpt from a poster on 'The Tape Project' forum....
  
  "I also had a Teac AN-60 and AN-180. Not quite sure about what the AN-60 had inside, but I did not like its sound, it soured me on Teac RTR's, which I also tended to think sounded shrill and "transistory". I later found out the AN-180 was stuffed with nasty sounding UA-709 IC's in the signal path, which makes me glad I never used it, tho it did look nice~!"
  
  "dammit"
- There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR - powermatic 09:22:05 08/01/09 (5)
  was a solution for a problem that wasn't there-at least at 7 1/2ips and above. Too bad that BC felt it necessary-I've never been put off by tape hiss, in fact rarely even notice it. I think I enjoy my BCs a bit more than you, but no more than my normal tapes. And hey, was that you who had the collection of dead Teac outboard processors?
  
  You might check with 'ironbut' (Steve) if you decide to sell your BCs-I think he's trying to complete his BC collection.
  
  "dammit"
  - RE: There's no question - michael22 19:25:44 08/14/09 (0)
    I completely agree. By the time BC introduced their tapes, tape technology was advanced to the point that noise reduction was unnecessary. The requirement for an outboard decoder for most tape enthusiasts may have doomed the BC venture from the outset.
    
    Three notes:
    I had the pleasant opportunity to visit the BC facility in NYC and received a personal tour of the premises by one of the owners. Got to see the duplicating room in action ..
    The Tower Annex in New York remaindered much of the BC catalog in the late 1980s. At the time, I picked up about a dozen titles, but haven't listened to them in years.
    I have *never* heard a BC tape with the Dolby decoding ..
  - RE: There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR - Dave Pogue 09:42:09 08/01/09 (3)
    Yeah, I had a 180 and two 60s (or 80s, I forget which) all of which died. The tech I was using at the time pronounced these things un-fixable. Plus a Nak NR-200 that didn't die but colored the sound so much it might as well have.
    The Teac A2300SD is currently in the shop. I played a couple of BC's on the Otari last night and darned if they didn't sound pretty good un-decoded. Even working properly, the Teac processors were hardly uncolored. I always thought that an alternative to outboard Dolby units might be to run the signal through one of those Musical Fidelity outboard tone controls, with a slight treble cut. Never got around to trying it.
    EDIT: Just saw your follow-up. So THAT was the problem, or one of them.
    
    Edits: 08/01/09
    - RE: There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR - powermatic 10:03:22 08/01/09 (2)
      "...darned if they didn't sound pretty good,,,"
      
      That's been my assessment-the brittle highs you'd expect aren't anywhere as prevalent as you'd assume. However, it must be said that, in my case, I've been recently trying some Tannoy Monitor Golds (12") in prototype cabinets, and they roll off sooner than my Magnepans (though they're very musical) so I'm sure that has a 'helpful' effect.
      
      Interesting idea about that MF-is that the tube-based 'buffer' that they tout for CD use? I think it's 'tketcham' on 'vinyl' who speaks highly of that unit.
      
      "dammit"
      - RE: There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR - Dave Pogue 11:12:07 08/01/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR posted by powermatic on August 01, 2009 at 10:03:22
        
        I agree that the highs don't sound that brittle; they can sound a little bright, though, and I just wish to heck that B-C had never heard of Dolby.
        
        That MF tone control unit is not the buffer you mention, but it was in the first-generation "X" series of cylindrical devices including the buffer, a couple of DACs, a PSU, phonostage and headphone amp.
        
        Of course if I weren't one of those purists, I'd already have tone controls :-)
        
        RE: "...wish to heck that B-C had never heard of Dolby." Amen to that. /nt/ - powermatic 11:14:03 08/01/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: There's no question that, at least for me, the whole Dolby process vis-a'-vis RtR posted by Dave Pogue on August 01, 2009 at 11:12:07
        
        .
        
        "dammit"
more...but then - grhughes 14:09:29 07/30/09 (2)
the time constants may be very different. I don't like Dolby or DBX. The ear learns to hear the pumping of the compressors. Ray
"I think the journey should be just as enjoyable as the destination." GRH
- RE: more...but then - powermatic 09:26:08 08/01/09 (1)
  I think I'll try the Integrex decoder again-it's been awhile, and 'ironbut' found fewer sonic anomalies with his than with others he's used, and it was the brand recommended by BC.
  
  As I mentioned above, it's too bad BC felt compelled to add processing to their tapes-maybe a market-driven decision.
  
  "dammit"
  - From an era where companies went processing crazy. nt - grhughes 10:51:08 08/01/09 (0)
    nt
    "I think the journey should be just as enjoyable as the destination." GRH
RE: Barclay-Crocker - grhughes 14:07:11 07/30/09 (7)
Well if you're listening to them without the decode you're gona experience quite a high freq boost. I don't own any of their tapes but just surmising from what you have said. It would be interesting to hear them decoded by a A stretcher unit (one of the first Dolby made for the recording industry=much more complicated and made to better standards than the B units). Ray
"I think the journey should be just as enjoyable as the destination." GRH
- RE: Barclay-Crocker - dollysowner 14:40:47 07/30/09 (6)
  I own a substantial number of Barclay-Crocker tapes, as well as many other open-reel tapes encoded with Dolby B noise reduction. To me they are unlistenable without being decoded-much too bright. It sounds like the issue is not with the tapes, but with your decoder. Are you sure you have set the Dolby level correctly? (Barclay-Crocker tapes have a reference tone at the end of each side.) I play my B-C tapes either on a Revox A-77 Mk III with built-in Dolby, or an Otari MX5050B-II feeding a Dolby 330 decoder. Either way, they sound wonderful.
  - RE: Barclay-Crocker - gladbag 07:32:55 10/09/09 (0)
    Hi. I'm dealing with the same issues of Dolby decoding that you guys have been discussing. I've been using an Ampex 440C with the old stock Nortonics qtr track play head for 4trks but that was never very satisfactory and Dolby tapes were simply unplayable (the Teac 180 never did the job). I've recently acquired an Otari 5050 and that's a ton better on the 4trks (2trks too for that matter but the ATR 102 is still the king for new taping) so now I'm prowling for a balanced Dolby decoder. Are the 330 and 422 the only models available? Is the 330 so old that the caps,etc demand replacement or are they usable and good enough to do the job? Is the 422 preferable? I'm not a tech so I'd have to pay to rebuild a a unit and at that point the decision would be very easy-sell the tapes. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Steven Gladstone slgladstone@yahoo.com
  - RE: Barclay-Crocker - powermatic 09:30:01 08/01/09 (0)
    I'll try inserting the outboard decoder(s) again, w/ a more careful adjustment as you recommend. I'll keep a lookout for the processor you mention-though I'm sure they're more rare than the usual, consumer-oriented models.
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    "dammit"
  - RE: Barclay-Crocker - astrotoy 17:42:38 07/30/09 (3)
    I have accumulated over 100 B-C tapes, most all of them as a B-C subscriber in the early 80's. I used to play them through my Akai GX747dbx and Teac AN-60 dolby B decoder. The sound was OK, but not great. The big change occured with changes in both my tape player and dolby decoder. The tape player I now use is a Bottlehead modified Technics 1506 with Bottle Repro electronics. (I got it to play the TP tapes, but it also has a 4 track playback head that can play the B-C tapes.) The dolby B decoder is a Dolby Model 330 B-type unit which has been modified with much of the old electronics parts upgraded. The tapes now sound really fine. Not at the same level as the Tape Project tapes, but very close to the vinyl versions I have of many of the tapes. I believe that the playback electronics of many of the fine tape recorders from the 70's and 80's are from the depths of the transistor era, as is the case of the Teac AN-60. Better electronics makes a hugh difference. Also I have about 75 dolby B tapes - mostly London classical. They sound much better than before and a few are comparable with the B-C tapes. However, they generally don't have calibration tones - so the dolby B match is a bit of a guess and the quality control of the duplication is not of the standard that B-C did - much higher speed duplication than B-C, which I believe was 4 to 1, while these were 16 to 1 or maybe even faster. THe dolby 330's, I have been told, were the machines that most tape labels used to do the actual dolby B encoding of their tapes.
    - RE: Barclay-Crocker - powermatic 09:31:41 08/01/09 (2)
      Thanks-again, another vote for the D-330. If you hear of one for sale, shoot me a mail. (-;
      
      Not ready to give up on the BCs yet, and as I noted above, prices have come down to earth.
      
      "dammit"
      - RE: Barclay-Crocker - ironbut 10:45:54 08/01/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Barclay-Crocker posted by powermatic on August 01, 2009 at 09:31:41
        
        Whew! That's sure is good news regarding the prices. I picked up a couple of eBay BC's the other day for the first time in at least a year (maybe 2)!.
        
        I used to listen to these without a decoder but after almost 2 years of fooling around with a decoder (on and off) I finally got one to sound pretty good. That's what astrotoy has. Unfortunately, it takes a ton of expensive parts and wholesale replacement of most of the interface components. Every one of them that I've modified is different so the modifications are exclusive to each unit. Hopefully this won't be true forever.
        
        So, needless to say, it's expensive but for me or someone else with a ton of BC's, it's really unlocked the sound of my collection and it's well worth it.
        
        RE: prices.... - powermatic 11:01:42 08/01/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Barclay-Crocker posted by ironbut on August 01, 2009 at 10:45:54
        
        Yeah, they seem to be in the 20-30 dollar range, with some going as low as 10.00. Maybe those 2 or 3 Japanese collectors finally either fleshed out their collections, or ran out of money.
        
        As for 'astrotoy's' processor, that answers the question of 'which machine' that you alluded to modding on the TP forum. Curious if you ever replaced any parts on your 'Integrex', that at one time you found to be the best of a bad lot.
        
        Might ride my m-cycle down to the City next weekend to hear your rig-we'll see. I'd like to, for sure.
        
        "dammit"

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