- Here's why... - mkuller 20:56:31 04/15/09
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- In Reply to: RE: If you CAN'Treally hear a difference between cable/wire... posted by Don Till on April 15, 2009 at 14:20:24
> Why wouldn't audiophiles believe that the best components are going to be those least effected by the wires connecting them?>
Because cables all sound subtly different. The more resolution your system has, the easier and quicker it is to hear those differences.
> My experiences are that the some of the worst components I have ever owned are those that have been most susceptable to interconnect differences.>
And on your 'better' components, you don't hear cable differences?
Just exactly what is it you think makes a component more 'susceptible' to cable differences?
- RE: Here's why... - Don Till 10:22:31 04/16/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Here's why... posted by mkuller on April 15, 2009 at 20:56:31
"Just exactly what is it you think makes a component more 'susceptible' to cable differences?"
It's i/o characteristics and how they match up with other components to which they are connected. Beyond the actual differences heard due to the interconnect electrical characteristics on the i/o interface of the connected components, material interfaces play a part in our perception of differences as well. Some of these interfaces, say a less than ideal transition between cable and connector, are static and repeatable. However material interfaces are somewhat dynamic and change over time.
These things don't have a sound - they may change the way the components interact, depending on the components, and thus change the sound.
"And on your 'better' components, you don't hear cable differences?"
I've always noticed a difference with speaker cables. With interconnects I usually notice a difference but there have been times where I noticed no difference or the difference was so subtle I didn't bother to try to notice it.
"Because cables all sound subtly different. The more resolution your system has, the easier and quicker it is to hear those differences."
Cables don't have a sound - but they may influence the components to which they are connected. And further just because you can hear differences or the differences are more obvious that is not enough to know your system has more resolving power.
Maybe in some absolute ideal test environment your POV, the more resolving power (whatever that might mean BTW) means we can better differentiate interconnects, might have more credibility. But we aren't talking about lab or test results. We're talking about the real world of stereo equipment - what's real and absolute for the most part has little to do with the conclusions we reach.
If you don't get the distinction I'm drawing you don't get it.
- I suspect we won't agree... - mkuller 10:40:38 04/16/09
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- In Reply to: RE: Here's why... posted by Don Till on April 16, 2009 at 10:22:31
> I've always noticed a difference with speaker cables.>
So far, so good.
> These things don't have a sound...With interconnects I usually notice a difference but there have been times where I noticed no difference or the difference was so subtle I didn't bother to try to notice it...Cables don't have a sound...>
So you want to have it both ways?
If I recall, you are an EE. Is that what they taught you in school - only speaker cables have their own sound.
Of course all cables have a sound.
They are all made of different materials, in different configurations with different connectors and differing amounts measured of R, C and I. It would be amazing if they didn't sound different.
For example, compare a pair of top of the line Nordost cables with Cardas'.
While the impedence interactions of the components can effect their sound, cable sonic signatures are repeatable with different equipment.
- We should really attempt to agree - this isn't "difficult" stuff - Don Till 13:41:28 04/16/09
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- In Reply to: RE: I suspect we won't agree... posted by mkuller on April 16, 2009 at 10:40:38
"So far, so good."
Not really. I've spent less time with speaker cables and I've compared single, bi as well as tri wire configurations as well as different lengths. With this kind of apples to oranges kind of comparison there is far more likelyhood of hearing differences.
And no I don't feel this lack of "fairness" in these comparisons in anyway takes away from the final decision I made in purchasing one cable over another.
The physical differences between auditioned interconnects are much less however there are differences none the less. Connector type, material as well as construction quality quickly come to mind.
"Of course all cables have a sound."
No. Cables do not have a sound - they can only effect the performance of the system to which they are connected.
This is equally true of speaker cables as well as interconnects - regardless of whether or not we hear a difference or not. We are not hearing cables/interconnects, we are hearing their effects on the connected components.
"They are all made of different materials, in different configurations with different connectors and differing amounts measured of R, C and I. It would be amazing if they didn't sound different."
You're preaching to the choir - I don't disagree. However some cable configurations are so similar that there are no differences.
"While the impedence interactions of the components can effect their sound, cable sonic signatures are repeatable with different equipment."
Only to the degree which the design of the connected components allow themselves to be effected by the interconnects or cables. If KCAG allows deeper bass than PBJ I would conclude the the differences between the RCL of the interconnect is what is responsible for the difference. However how noticible that difference is going to be on the output depends on the i/o characteristics of the connected components.(see note below)
The fact that the difference is more or less obvious is not a function of the resolving power of the connected components. It's a function of the component design, ie. the i/o characteristics in particular.
note - Of course the systems ability to reproduce deep bass has something to do with how noticable that difference will be as well. But a system short on bass might better reveal this difference as well or better than one with an adequete bass response in the first place. Ie. in the system cable of reproducing the full dose of bass it would be less noticible if some was missing than a system that was struggling to reproduce it in the first place.
- We should really attempt to agree - this isn't "difficult" stuff - Don Till 13:41:28 04/16/09
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- I suspect we won't agree... - mkuller 10:40:38 04/16/09
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- RE: Here's why... - Don Till 10:22:31 04/16/09
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- yer wrong. - hifitommy 16:33:01 04/15/09
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- In Reply to: RE: If you CAN'Treally hear a difference between cable/wire... posted by Don Till on April 15, 2009 at 14:20:24
it has EVERYTHING to do with resolving power, but maybe no so much about price. a nad 3020 is high end, and highly resolving.
...regards...tr
- If you put ihat way I agree with you - Don Till 09:24:49 04/16/09
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- In Reply to: RE: yer wrong. posted by hifitommy on April 15, 2009 at 16:33:01
Certainly a component as elavated as the NAD 352, can descriminate the differences between interconnects.
I've stated, somewhere else in this thread, we are talking about gear a level or two above Fischer-Price.
It's kind of frustrating trying to discuss these kinds of topics when people are going to bring up stuff that's not even midfi in quality to make their points.
Your point appears to be because the Fischer-Price all in one stereo can't discriminate between speaker cables and interconnects one can conclude that the more a system can discriminate the more resolving it must be.
So you've made your point and I agree - though it's really got nothing to do with hifi hifitommy.
- If you put ihat way I agree with you - Don Till 09:24:49 04/16/09
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