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Magnetar's sig line. What does it mean? 320,000 is a whole lot of Gauss I guess.OK, I'm trying to get real. Why should I get horns?
Audio old timers sometimes rave about horns, but it's gear costing several thousand dollars or more, not moderately priced gear like Klipsch. So who makes good horn speakers today? Or is it better to buy vintage gear? At what price point do the horns bring on that nirvana type listening experience?
I've never auditioned good horn speakers, so I don't know what it's all about yet. Glad if anybody can clue me in or provide links about quality horn speaker technology.
Follow Ups:
for real power and dynamics, give me Curies and Barns and I'll show you something a bit more spectacular :) No horns needed (though licensing for special nuclear materials is required...)
I beg to differ as regards soundstage with horns.The soundstage is spot on with my Klipschorns. This is in an imperfect room, missing a lare section of the right wall across from the listening position.
In fact, the second you start listening to Khorns you discover that you are hearing music, not speakers making music. The soundstage makes the walls disappear, too.
As far as Tom's points otherwise, he's right. Dynamics, precision, effortlessness, they are all there. After hearing horns, every other speaker (save electrostatics) sound opaque and muddy.
I think that people who do not like horns have not heard them with proper conditions. The most common, almost universal, mistake made is to mate them with high watt (or even medium watt) solid state amps. The horn speakers of the world really need the first watt to be exceptional. For the most part, SS amps reach their rated levels at full power, which would cause the walls to start crumbling and not be viable listening levels.
Eight watts, or even 3.5 watts, are enough. More than enough.
Go tubes and horns. You won't go back.
Reading on Discovery.com I have learned that 320,000 Gauss is a monsterously powerful magnetic field. Wouldn't the current required to produce that kind of magnetic field melt metal?Heres the link:
(http://school.discovery.com/homeworkhelp/worldbook/atozscience/m/338410.html)Heres the text:
"Fields of about 250,000 gauss (25 tesla) have been produced by passing extremely strong electric current through a coil made of copper plates. These magnets require cooling systems that pump water past the coils, however, to prevent the heat produced by the current from melting the copper plates."
and:
"The strongest electromagnets, called hybrid magnets, consist of a
water-cooled electromagnet within a superconducting magnet. These devices can produce magnetic fields of about 350,000 gauss (35 tesla)."Sounds more like high energy physics apparatus than consumer audio gear. If I've done my homework correctly, most speakers produce less than 25,000 Gauss. So where'd you come up with a figure of 320,000? Is there really a speaker with that kind of power?
The figure is incorrect (high) for my current system, I need to change it. I was using 10 big motor 15's, 2 bm 12's, 2 big motor compression drivers, 2 big motor compression horn tweeters for my main speakers as well as another horn tweeter for my center channel, 2 6" woofers, 2 titanium dome tweeters and 2 more 6" woofers for my surround.Now I have eliminated the need for the horn compression tweeters and the 12's in the main speaker system. I am changing the rear channels to 15's (TAD 1601a) though with big motors and am going to use much higher flux density tweeters back there, as well as going to a compression driver, dual 15 (TAD 1601a) center channel, so it will actually be higher. I have it all (except I need a good single 1.5" exit driver)
The flux density of the drivers is measured in gauss.
I believe the more motor strength density you have the more realistic the sound and dynamics are. Low distortion and effortless output sounds real. With high energy magnets you get better sensitivity, efficiency, and lower distortion. Then you load the high energy drivers in an acoustic transformer (a horn) and the effect is amplified by the air! Horn loading is a wonderful thing.
If you don't have the room for a BIG subhorn, like me, you use multiple high energy low distortion woofers loaded in the room to take advantage of the room gain. My 8 15" JBL sub-woofers are mounted in the corners. It's like sitting inside the horn. : ^ )
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
A huge speaker magnet might have total energy of 320,000 Maxwells with the gap saturating at 20,500 gauss.It takes very special alloys to get the gap higher than this.
The Lowther PM4A driver has a strength of 2.4 T (= 24,000 Gauss)in the gap. This driver is used the 108 dB efficient Oris 150 system.
Just shows hat they are not using iron in the gap.The more carbon there is in the steel the less magnetism it can hold.It doesn't matter how big the magnet is.Focal made some tweeters with exotic(cobalt) pole pieces.
Vacuous--I don't know any hornys raving about big-bucks stuff, it seems to be hi-end type people and not traditional hornys that are raving about the ridiculously priced Avant Gardes and such. You can get great sound using used Altec and JBL gear, it doesn't cost much used and even new JBL Pro speaker components look cheap next to the cost of completed hi-end speaker systems of much lower performence. For under $1000 you can put together an Altec or JBL 2-way with a 15" vented woofer and a horn top end. Buy used drivers and crossovers and build your own box or for under a grand you can find vintage Altecs like Iconics and Valencias or "gray box" VOTs. Compression drivers and good high-efficiency woofers have changed very little since the 1930s and 40s, guys like Wente, Lansing and Hilliard hit on the right way to make good speakers pretty early on, what with the resources of the Phone Company and film industry behind them, speakers are afterall some of the simplist of machines. The improvements to normal speakers over the years have been efforts to make bad speakers better, to get decent sound from small boxes and cheap drivers. Now the hi-end is discovering underhung voicecoils for woofers, big wow, Altec and JBL have been making woofers like that for over 50 years. This is what horn lovers like about horns (and I'm talking serious compression-driver, big woofer speakers here, not little Voight pipes with cheap cones or single driver rigs with undersized rear horn bassbins like Lowthers): the sound is easy and undistorted, dynamics are very lifelike and there is never a sense of strain. Musical instruments can be reproduced with startling clarity, the instruments themselves sound more alive and real. This is where I think hornys and conventional hi-enders are on different paths. I hear hi-enders constantly describing sound in terms of depth, soundstage, image etc., in visual terms. Yet this search for soundstage etc. brings one no closer to the actual sound of music, it's like these guys want to hear the hall instead of the music. I know of no audiophile speakers that can sound like an actual Fender Bass played through a Dual Showman or an actual sax or a SG and a Marshall 1959 stack, but horn rigs can do this. I don't want to hear where the bass is placed in the soundstage, I want it to sound like an actual bass is in the room. Look at it this way, the actual clues that cue you that actual live music is being played have nothing to do with imaging or stereo placement but everything to do with hair-trigger dynamics and the ability to move lots of air, right now, with low distortion and horns excell at that. When you walk past a bar you know when the music is an actual band and that has nothing to do with soundstage. The same when a kid down the street is practicing the trumpet or the local garage band is practicing. Joe Roberts put it well when he said that normal audiophiles were looking for a "you are there" presentation of the sound but that hornys are looking for "they are here". I'll take "they are here".
You can have it all. I get everything I want with the ORIS 150 horns. They play with startling clarity, explosive dynamics, scale, and they put "you there". Why settle for one or the other? They're not even all that expensive, IMO.Kurt
I like this post. I guess some like it big. I agree with the visual overphasis thing. However, there're a few things...First, the room is the most important aspect. I think you guys take for granted of having a big listenting room. I dont know if putting a 15'' woofer per side, into a NYC size apartment will work at all.
Second, amplified music is not possible to reproduce absolute realism as its a lossy process. Therefore, realism is a cake that noone can whole have. What it is depends on which slide you choose. I can't say that "hair-trigger dynamics" with low distortion ain't real. I also know that superb dynamic range, low distorition, not necessarily hair-triggeringly loud, timberly accurate, and all those juicy stuff are also very very real. I don't think that drivers like Lowther are great because they have low distortion at extreme loudness. Though this could be a consequence, I think they're great because they have superb clarity and low distortion at low volume. If Diana Krall is in my listening room (many would reject this idea completely though), I wouldn't want her to scream as loudly as she could. I would rather have her be more intimate, controlled, sound nice, not raise neighbor's curiosity.
This leads to "You are there" vs "They are here". I don't think "They are here" is a function of loudness, but rather of speaker AND (more importantly) amplifier quality and characterisitcs, given others being equal. For example, plug a big bad SS amp into a good Fostex 208 design, you lose the "They are here". Plug a good SET amp into a good Fostex 108, which is less efficient obviously, all the sudden the musicians move into your small listening room. You can have superb dynamic range and low distortion with a great but less-efficient driver. Just move closer to the speaker, move into a small room. At an extreme, you can even have extremely low SPL, but if you put you ears right next to the vibrating thing, as in the case of headphones, you can still achieve subperb dynamic range together with other good stuffs.
Its true that one can unmistakably tell that a live band is playing, walking by a bar. That's because most bars have lousy electronics that its impossible for them to turn it up at the live level without sounding horribly distorted. So bar-live-music detection is a mixture of known facts and sound quality at the same time. However, some have reportedly mistakenly thought that their "normal" level music were played by real musicians (of course, plus or minus epsilon).
The aural walk by Bar Band fidelity test!I wish I thought of it when I was young. Excellent deduction and post.
Gregg
What you're trying to sell here is an either/or approach.Distilling your post to its essential message:-
High-end = spacial information but missing the impact and presence of the real, live musicians
Horny = the sound of the real, live musicians, without all the spacial stuffWhich you equate to "You are there" vs. "They are here"
"When you walk past a bar you know when the music is an actual band and that has nothing to do with soundstage"
I agree completely. Where we differ is when you stop in, buy a beer, sit down to listen to the music.
The room has space, height and atmosphere. The musicians are playing on a stage, left and right. Its not a vacuum. And its most certainly not my listening room
For me "You are there" should give me the live musicians, with all their dynamics, presence, verve and excitement, playing in their original venue. "They are here" is simply a sub-set of the same, minus all the spacial information.
Which would you really prefer? "You are there" live at the Wigmore Hall or "They are here" live in your 20 x 14 foot listening room.
Personally, I'll take the Wigmore, which is perhaps where those ridiculously expensive loudspeakers fit in?
Steve--You're right, it needn't be either one thing or the other. People tell me my rig images nicely but I really don't pay much attention to that, until recently I was using a mono rig with a single Altec 605A and a Fisher 80AZ in one of my rooms and I loved listening to it. What I like is to be able to clearly pickout and listen to the various parts of the music if I want; to concentrate on the bassline or the bassdrum-snaredrum play (the beat in other words I reckon) or the piano, guitar, singer or whatever, I can do this with a good mono rig. In fact sometimes I think the whole stereo thing is an actual distraction from concentrating on the music itself. My reference sound is what instruments and voices sound like in my house or other small spaces, I've spent many lots of time practicing and jamming there, I know what drums, bass, guitar, horns etc. can sound like there. When I hear music live I pretty much dial-out the sound of the venue to concentrate on the music. Now I'm gonna pickup my bass and play along with "Downpayment Blues" by AC/DC. :-)
Tom's system images fine, although the dynamics and low distortion is the real strong point in my opinion. It is ultra relaxed and effortless sounding, hair trigger dynamics and BIG tone.I'm more of a "high-end" dude than Tom would ever want to be but to me his system using "high-end" terms would be HUGE soundstage, pinpoint imaging, wrap around sound and dynamics that will send shivers down your spine. It's also very refined sounding with him driving the compression drivers through the damped Altec 511 horns with his Fisher power amp (NICE!)
I just wish he would have played his bass though the big rig instead of the little 15 when I visted him. Maybe next time Tom?
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
Of course a well designed spherical (my Altecs don't do this 811's/806 -416)horn can image and project a ralistic soundstage. It is possible to have them here and still get the cues regarding the actual recording enviroment (whether real or simulated.) The combination to me is realism, I often have to take a double take at what I hear within the soundstage projectd by my horns because it is so darn realistic, I'm virtually convinced the instument is real and 'there.' A good horn will give you goosebumps darn near every time you listen to them. They can be spooky in this respect.
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
I agree 100%.I'm sitting in my music room
Relaxed without a care,
My horns just making music,
For which they have great flair,
I sit before my LPs,I choose my tune with care,
Feels like our local jazz club,
Could almost say "I'm there"
The drummer's Ginger Baker,Yes that's him, over there!
Tapping on the cymbals
And rolling on the snare
I simply love this music,its something great to share
I'm sure if you could join me
You'd also shout "We're There!"
.
You're with me man!Cheers,
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
Great post Tom. I especially appreciated the part about Lowthers and Voight pipes. In comparison, the aforementioned are toys compared to real horns like the Vitavox, Altec, JBL, and even Klipsch (while Klipsch are not my favourite sounding speakers, Khorns can sound quite good with some minor crossover modifications and the right electronics). Dinky little drivers, such as Lowthers, in relatively tiny boxes just cannot move enough air to portray the full dynamics and weight of a symphony orchestra or other complex musical pieces(never mind their lack of real bass). While I do agree that Lowther based speakers do sound quite nice with the proper program music, they simply do not portray the sense of a live musical event like large dynamic horns (unless its a chamber ensemble or solo performance).
Ok, then here's my questions. I saw a pair of Peaveys in a pawn shop. They had the V shaped bass bin with a roundish mid/tweeter horn on the top. I'm guessing 38 inches high. Clearly they were made for live music and were used in that fashion. However, they were still in decent cosmetics. I'm guessing they were 20 years old. They were $800 Cdn, about $525 US. Does the Peavey sound decent and were they worth that amount? I'm sorry, there was no model #. Is there a website to view these types of horn speakers and read comments on their sound. Clearly they are a different approach than the Lowther design. What is the Asylum's opinion?
Scott--Those are good speakers. The basshorn is the FH-1 and is a very good unit, until recently I had a pair. The top end is of good quality but only you can judge if you'll like the sound. DIY hornys often spend lots of time on the mid-hi horns, they vary in sound according to dispersion pattern, flare rate and such. I'd buy them, the price is fair, but give them a listen, you might hate them, who can tell? I've a little horn website with lots of pictures of my rig and of other people's too and is has lots of links to other horn sites, take a look.
I sure wished I had that much room in my house. I can barely squeeze in one pair of horns, that's it. It would be cool to be able to listen to all those different speakers.Kurt
**
Hi Scott- I picked up Tom's Peavy FH-1's off of him a couple of weeks ago. They ahve an extra layer of MDF on the outsides and a Klipsch woofer in them instead of the OEM Black Widow. They sound GREAT in my system. I'm using them from 60 to 300 cycles and the bass detail is really nice as well as the dynamics. They work just wonderfully with my other horns.Here is some in room measurements and info I posted for Freddy:
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
Nicely detailed reply. Seems like vintage horns are the way to go. Nice summary of horn philosophy too. Only thing that bugs me: Not easy to audition horns. Kind of a rarity in audio showrooms. It's even weird that this speaker technology has become so marginalized. Victim of fashion?
I have three pair of horns in Ohio if you want to come over and listen. Older Altecs, Edgarhorns (they might be sold though) and Sierra Brooks big boys.The horn speakers drivers precision and big motors (magnets)costs a lot of money, and the speakers are very large and heavy (well, ugly to some). This makes it difficult for a dealer to market them. I know I had to actually build a pair before I could audition them Finding a horn dealer in Ohio is like discovering you have a million dollar inherintence left to from a relative you never knew.
MagnetarMusical Realism = 320,000 Gauss ! Get real - Get horns.
Best damn speaker I've heard for under 2k$, and you can build it for a 100$ (ok, maybe more if you get the Fostex drivers, recommended). Check over at James Melhuish single driver website for plans (do a search, I don't have the address handy).Here you will get great bass, mids to die for, and great highs. Fantastic imaging due to the single driver. Plus 95 dBish so you can go low powered SET for the ultimate. Its just a great speaker.
Dan
ps. Why post this here, instead of the high eff forum? I rarely come over here personally ..
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