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I recently got my hands on two sets of like-new, Definitive Technology floor standing speakers (BP-2006TLs and BP-7004s). Both sets have mids and tweeters front-facing and rear-facing and both have integrated, internally powered subs. Alone, I really enjoy both sets. When added together, however, the smaller pair (2006s) seem to almost completely disappear, adding only a hint of better high-range.
I'm looking for advice on how I might use all 4 speakers in a single system...one room. It's a medium-sized room (25' x 15'), but has vaulted, high ceilings. The system will be used for music only...no surround. I love precision, but I need higher volumes and a big sound. My room is set up for my home dance parties which are very well attended. I'm hoping these speakers can be used to create a very big, full sound at moderate-high volumes.
Is what I want possible, or will the speakers just phase each other out. Any suggestions for placement or set-up would be greatly appreciated!
Follow Ups:
And again...thank you for the great information!
Over the weekend, I did a lot of tinkering. First, I raised both smaller towers three feet off the ground on solid tables. Then, I discovered that, while the Pioneer has more power, the Yamaha surround amp allows me a surprising amount of control. I ran the test balancing and then did some of my own balancing and I managed to really bring the smaller pair of speakers out from hiding. With the Yamaha, I'm able to adjust the volume of each, individual, speaker. Since each of the 4 towers has their own sub volume, that helped too. Then, I found that pointing the two larger-tower subs toward each other, and the two smaller-tower subs toward the outer wall, opened up the lower frequency significantly.
As mentioned earlier, more wattage (and probably cleaner power) will be good and that is my goal. Also, as much a I dearly love Spoitify, I'm going to download some better files and see what that does to the sound.
Thank you very much for the suggestions on specific amps! With the new balancing and set up, and since the subs are already powered, I think my 125rms into the mids and tweets actually provides quite a bit of umph! It's not ear-splitting loud, but WOW does it sound full and round! Already, it's about 1000x better than anything I've ever owned! When I want precision, I turn off the big speakers and let the smaller (DefTech BP-2006TL's) do their magic. Interestingly, the smaller pair are definitely more precise than the the larger pair (DefTech BP 2004s).
(MannnyE - Unlike your DefTech 2002's, my speakers have only 2 posts, so I'm not able to separately amp. Thanks for that suggestion...that would be awesome!)
Great forum! Thank you for all the good information!
My suggestion would be to get a multi channel amp rated @ the same wpc & use the second source out on the Yamaha. Some even have separate variable input ( essentially trim pots ) levels.
I think you can have what you want. As an actual owner of the speakers (different models, but powered bi-polar towers) I can tell you that for a dance party, some time spent setting the levels will most likely yield a great result.
First, remember that bi-polars need breathing room. The farther away from the corners you put them, the better they will sound. In my room, the BP 2002 towers are 3 feet away from the walls behind and to the side. If you don't have that much room, try to get them placed as far as possible from the walls. If you have more, then that's even better.
Second, get yourself an ANALOG meter to measure the sound levels and make sure you match the levels at "C" weighting... I also think it's "fast" but I have to get back to you on that. You have a choice between "fast" and "slow" and if memory serves, the measurements should be taken at "C" and "fast". You will be truly amazed at how loud bass levels are compared to mids and highs.
Also, use a setup disc or digitize that disc to emanate from the SOURCE. Internal preamp or receiver signals are better than nothing, but not as effective as what you will get from your actual source.
We have had parties that sound like a South Beach dance club. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to get the same results with 4 subs.
You haven't mentioned what your front end equipment is. That will make a big impact on the sound. What kind of processing are you doing to the sound?
Also, how are you amplifying them? DefTech speakers love power. the more you give them, the better they sound. Despite being pretty efficient, my BP2002 towers get better the more power I pump into them, particularly the midrange. When I had, for a brief time, enough channels of amplification and I removed the jumpers, feeding 165 watts (passive bi-amping) into each set of binding posts, the clarity at ludicrous volume was amazing and at moderate volumes just seemed cleaner (although that could have been in my head).
I have included a link to the analog sound level meter that I have (mine is the Radio Shack branded one) that Velleman made after Radio Shack stopped making them. It's cheap and when used correctly, will reward you with exponentially better sound quality from your system, especially when trying to level-match two different sizes of speaker.
MannyE - Wow! Thanks for the great response!
Luckily, I have a great room in which to set up my system and give it breathing room. Similar to your advice, I've read a number of things indicating that these speakers need room to breathe!
When you talk about a setup disc or digitized disc to emanate from the Source, I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain? Perhaps your talking about the sound/music file source. Although I'm guilty of sometimes using Spotify on my phone, which I understand has crappy audio quality, I do have the ability and have wondered if it would be worth downloading high-quality audio files.
What I don't have, yet, is a really great power source. My two options at this point are an old Pioneer receiver. It runs 125 watts per channel and must have been Pioneers top-of-the-line when it was new because it does seem to do a nice job and the spec sheet is impressive for a consumer-grade unit. I also have a much newer Yamaha. But, it's rated at 105 per channel and is not impressive. It's a 7.1 surround receiver that tries to do everything.
I've been scouring Craiglist and other places for a good and powerful amp. Turns out, it's difficult (and expensive) to find a good, clean amp that delivers the kind of power you've referenced. But, I'm looking.
I'm a novice at this. So, if you've got any suggestions of what I could look for in an amp or other system components (preferably something that I can find used), I'm all-ears. I'm eager to get rid of the receivers I have and go to something that is more dedicated and better quality. I don't have an unlimited budget, but am willing to spend some money to make these new speakers live up to their potential.
Thanks again for your post!
The Yamaha might work, you didn't mention if the Pioneer was a surround receiver, from the comments I assumed not. With the Def Tech's powered you may not need that much power from the Yamaha, if it has preamp outputs the better, then you can easily add an external power amp. Hook all 4 speakers to the Yamaha, like front left/right for one set and rear left/right for the other. Then you can use the Yamaha's internal speaker set up to balance them, maybe even use the auto speaker set up for the additional room equalization. Then when having the party run the receiver in "all channel stereo" mode so all the speakers are driven with same level. Set all speakers to "large" inside the Yamaha so they get the full signal. Yamaha usually offers a good selection of DSP modes you might find useful, "hall", "disco" etc. Maybe see if one has better bass reinforcement.
You didn't mention a budget for amps. I'd watch for used Adcom, you can usually find a 200x2 either gfa 555 or 5500 around $500.00 give or take. Great value at the used prices. For new and on a budget you might consider the Emotiva, or, maybe some of the Class D offerings out there. If you really want them to sing and still be able to stream in one package, look at the Parasound Halo integrated amp.
For better quality streaming Tidal has a high res service that's about $20.00 a month. If you can only do Spotify, many HT receivers have some type of digital enhancement to expend response of mp3, it may work on streaming, not sure. I've found streaming from Pandora and Amazon Prime to be not so good by comparison to CD, not used Spotify.
To answer your first question about source. I mean whatever you are using for music playback. It doesn't matter what it is (and you won't get any judgments from me as to how you play your music...it's your party and you can Spotify if you want to).
What I mean is that both your Pioneer and Yamaha probably generate test tones to help make sure that you are getting the correct levels at the listening position. Those are great to use as a baseline. In fact, when I am setting up a system, I will start with those tones. But those tones are NOT coming from your iphone, or CD player or music server and until you calibrate using tones from the music source (again..whatever it may be) you're not getting your money's worth. I also try to go manual (using the sound level meter and setting the levels manually) rather than using the microphone some newer receivers come with. If your Pioneer is older, it probably wont have auto-calibrate anyway.
As far as amplification goes, I think you are OK with those levels. Keep in mind that the sub-woofers in the Deftechs are powered (assuming both those models are powered towers) and don't need an amp.
So if the Pioneer has 5 channels of amplification, I would go with that one. I had one of those big Pioneers back in the day and always found them a little too bright. Of course, that's a nitpick..they were great receivers, especially the Elite line. I wouldn't bother with bi-amping because you're looking at a lot of cable already and bi-amping will increase the amount of interconnects and speaker cables to staggering levels.
I would also, if your speakers allow, remove the jumpers to the low end (my BP-2002 have 3 sets of binding posts; high, mid and low) and use the Pioneer's LFE and/or sub output. That way the receiver is handling bass management and you have more control. If you only have the mid and high speaker connections, then you also probably have the LFE and/or sub input on the plate amp on the BP towers. Since you're not using the system for movies, and IF you have a choice, use the sub input rather than the LFE input, which is supposed to be for movies.
Always make sure the Pioneer is set to "large" in the speaker setup. Let the internal crossovers of the Def-Techs decide what frequencies go where. I would also call DefTech and ask where to set the bass management. They have some of the best customer service I have ever experienced.
The only other thing that made me worry when I started was what to do with 2 (in your case 4) subs and only one LFE output. Just get three splitters and make 4 outputs then run the RCA cables to each sub. Easy Peasy. I never did 4, but I didn't seem to have any problems with 2 and I doubt you will "degrade" the signal much if at all. You're not sitting by yourself in front of two speakers doing critical listening anyway, you're dancing and having fun. So relax and have fun. :)
It sounds like the smaller pair is less efficient (won't play as loud with same input power) Or, the amp powering the bass module is less powerful.
Either way, you can use a speaker switcher with independent volume for each pair so you can balance their outputs. Or, depending on electronics you can use 2 separate power amps, one for each set but at least one amp will need gain control in order to balance the output of the speakers.
But if balancing the speakers it may not be the best way because you then limit the louder pair, so you may want to use the louder pair and call it a day.
I suppose a simple way as well would be to use what is called a Lpad, same as a volume control basically for the louder pair to attenuate the sound.
A lot depends on how you are driving the speakers and the area you are trying to cover. For instance, if using a HT receiver they often have features to drive a 2nd set of speakers in another room or area.
If you don't deal with the difference in output between the two it really won't matter where you place them because as you stated, you can't really hear the smaller ones. So what's the best benefit, 4 speakers to spread the sound out, or one set of speakers that plays the loudest?
Mr. Peabody..thanks for the advice. It's odd, the speakers are both rated for the same efficiency and I'd hope the volumes would be similar. But, unless phasing or other sonic confusion is to blame, the smaller pair seem to be more quiet.
I'm actually not driving any of the speakers particularly hard in my current set up. So, maybe putting a little more clean juice to the small pair might catch them up and provide some nice fill, without significantly throttling down the big pair. I do have a separate zone on one amp that might be used for experimenting with this. Unfortunately, that's the same amp that ultimately doesn't have as much power as I would like.
Before I decide the two sets of speakers won't work, I think I better try turning up the small ones to at least reach their potential.
Thanks for your advice!
Um, I wouldn't use those speakers for that at all. Once you have people in the room you'll need to cank them.
Your best option is to go with pro speakers on stands so they can fire downwards.
A single pair should do it.
If you insist on these speakers, you can compensate somewhat by bass-limiting them and adding subwoofers. However since they'll be firing across the room, the mids and treble will continue to be attenuated.
Best,
Erik
No doubt you need stuff on stands in a roomful of people. Speakers firing at the three foot level ain't going to cut it.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Thanks Erik. I totally agree about using full PA's on stands. However, my wife preferred a little more classy appearing set-up. :)
Using the speakers I have, would you position them at four corners, or in pairs at the front, or even in the front with the big ones on the floor, the smaller pair positioned higher? I'm a bit of a novice at this, but I'd think the worst attenuation appears when the speakers are pointed directly at each other. If they're pointed in the same direction, then perhaps the problem is minimized?
The attenuation I'm talking about happens from people in the room.
Imagine you are in the center of the space, surrounded by other people. Those people will act as sound absorbers.
Those speakers are just not designed to give you loud listening levels in that kind of space, and you risk damaging them. Of course, this is theory. Try them out. Maybe you don't need them as loud as I think you do, or won't have as many people as I'm guessing.
I'm just saying if you want reliability and good sound that 20 or more people can dance to that's the wrong approach. Maybe some JBL studio monitors would work better.
Best,
Erik
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