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In Reply to: RE: So? posted by 3db on November 09, 2016 at 15:44:12
I use a stereo pair to eliminate localization - that most annoying aspect of using a single sub since the most linear measurable response in my room dictates using a highish 70 hz 12 db/octave low pass - with audible output another octave above that.
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Is eliminated by your crossover setting being below the threshold of localization, and not because you have 2 subs. The 2nd sub is there to smooth out the bass response in your room. Based on your pic, your only smoothing out the bass for a very small listening area at not for the whwhole room. That being said, I don't have a picture of the entire room so it may be working for you. Have you tried moving the second sub to another location to see if you could broaden the sweet spot for bass?
Edits: 11/10/16 11/10/16
In my living room, I tried placing a single sub in the available locations around the perimeter of the room but didn't get a satisfactorily flat response. The only good locations for a sub in my room which aren't in the way of foot traffic are at either end of the sofa. With the sub placed at one end of the sofa, and while sitting on the sofa next to it, it was still somewhat localizable even with a 40 Hz crossover point (mostly with HT effects, not so much with music). I solved this by placing a second sub at the other end of the sofa and balancing their levels by ear at the sweet spot. Now they completely disappear unless you put your head within 2 feet or so.
So I think using multiple subs can help with localization as well as evening out the response.
Hey 3db (which I would write as 3dB, but that's another topic), you're on the right track, but missing the all-important details.
Crossing below about 80 Hz, which is generally where we can start to perceive the source direction of a sound, does not mean that the "sub" does not produce output above that frequency. The "slope" of the crossover is just as important as the x-over frequency. For example, say the x-over is 60 Hz, with a slope of 12 dB/octave. This means the sub output is down 3 dB at 60 Hz, and is down 15 dB at 120 Hz. Without a calculator and the formula handy, let's say the sub output is down about 8-10 dB at 90 Hz. That is readily audible. That is one reason why two subs are often necessary, placed near each of the main speakers.
As I've written multiple times, buy "Why You Hear What You Hear".
:)
I use the AVR'S digital filters set at 80 Hz which I believe to be 2nd order filters with a 24 dB per octave roll off. Maybe that's the reason for not hearing any localization.
you don't understand how crossovers work or don't share my hearing acuity. I'll repeat my observation:
"...using a highish 70 hz 12 db/octave low pass - with audible output another octave above that."
Simple test Sparky - turn off the main amplifier and one sub while playing bass content. I just did that again to validate my earlier experience.
Perhaps you cannot localize sound an octave above that crossover point, but I can assure you that I can.
from you is nothing new especially when you feel challenged. I didn't mean to kivk your delicate but insanely large ego. Later sparkey.
Does your simplistic evaluation hold true in your room using a 12 db/octave slope?
I prefer the accuracy of digital filters to achieve my end results. Your so called tests are filled with sight bias. Your apparent lack of localization due to stereo subs has eliminated localization to one sub. However, the localization is now set to a pair of subs sitting in front beside your speakers. If I were to walk around your room, I would hear uneven bass response depending where I am standing.
Your so called tests are filled with sight bias.
How little your assumptions about me are accurate! I always close my eyes to evaluate audio gear.
In fact, one thing that annoys me about my Polk center speaker is that it is a two and a half way design. Which generally is a good thing and works fine in a vertical position. Although the cabinet is truly centered, I am aware that the origin of most of the sound is slightly to the right where the "midrange" driver is located. It would block the screen if I stood it up and it's as wide as the rack so I really cannot shift its lateral location nor the rack itself.
Your apparent lack of localization due to stereo subs has eliminated localization to one sub.
This is what I'm saying.
If I were to walk around your room, I would hear uneven bass response depending where I am standing.
Not only do I agree, I've measured it! Unlike my dedicated music room, the HT is in the family room where my options for placement are limited. On the other hand, I don't walk around the room while enjoying the HT. :)
Ideally, I would like to have a set of The Swarm designed by fellow inmate Duke LeJeune.
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