|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
209.81.100.115
In Reply to: RE: Speakers with lowest THD posted by eyedrop on September 04, 2016 at 21:32:59
Quad, King Sound, Martin Logan, Apogee, Acoustat, and Magnepan all have extraordinarily low distortion.
They are all electrostatic or planar magnetic.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Follow Ups:
Ken Kessler compared the Quad 989 to the the B&W N801 - the N801 had FAR less THD than the Quad. It was also pair matched better (albeit a still lousy +/-2.9dB).
with the 989s or the measurements.Just the laws of physics doesn't permit what Mr Kessler was saying..There are three types of speakers that are considered the worlds fastest loudspeakers...It has always been common knowledge that ESLS are the fastest speakers with the lowest distortion just by the fact that the diaphragm is so light and is driven at the perimeter to where there is no drag coefficient to speak of that will come into play.ESLs also have very few crossover components unless it's a multi panel speaker like my CLXs and even those are using two toroid audio transformers .There isn't too much in the signal path and even my old ML Monolith 2s,I used to drive direct with the Citation 2 amps but had an input R/C network rolling it off at 100cps and I let the powered subs do the rest.
The next ones are the planar magnetics like Apogee and Magnepans.Those also have the speed by nature of design of the quasi-ribbon and the way that magnets move the ultra light diaphragm from the outer edges like the ESL does.
Last but not least would be compression field coil drivers.Those babies are wicked fast with low distortion and also have the dynamics along with the price..YIKES.
I would be curious as to know the method Ken Kessler used to measure the distortion in the B&W and Quad speakers and how he arrived at the measurements..I find it hard to believe that a conventional speaker with several crossover points and conventional cone drivers would measure lower distortion than either an ESL or Planar Magnetic for that matter.
Now I realize that distortion doesn't tell the whole story and many tines doesn't mean much.. Just saying.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
The low frequency distortion of an ESL comes from a couple things. First, for it to get LF at all, being a dipole, it has to either use resonance or some kind of EQ to compensate for the inherent back-cancellation rolloff..... most ESLs use both, the diaphragm resonance is set to a value that gives bass while still keeping stiff enough suspension for allowing for good behaviour at higher freqeuqncies. The original QUAD used a higher step-up ratio to allow for bass EQ, which means the diaphragm has to move further, which pushes it further into nonlinearity. The solution is to make it bigger or change to a cone driver at LF, which some designs do.The second factor in an ESL is the step-up transformer core, which likes to saturate when fed from high level low frequency, like all transformers do. Just the nature of the beast. Voice coils and magnets have difficulties, too, but they aren't usually being pushed as hard to get output as ESLs.
While the ESL principle can have very low distortion at midband and HF, it doesn't do so well at VLF. Not really many (maybe any?) dipoles do, they are at a disadvantage down very low because front and back cancel. Doesn't meant they can't sound good though.
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
Edits: 09/09/16
First - I got the model wrong it was the 2905.In the lab report section under lab report the last line they say the speaker was bettered by the B&W 802 for THD. (got the B&W wrong from memory too) but hey close enough - the 2905 is supposed to be the better speaker over the older Quads.
And to be fair the reviewer loved the speakers regardless and liked them better than the Scintilla (although that IMO isn't a shock as I have auditioned both as well and came to that conclusion in about three notes. ESL is simply a helluva lot more natural sounding than ribbons. And you can run a SET on them.
PS I also like Quad - I just find them too expensive and as Ken notes they will never do the things is favorite boxed speakers can do - I can't live without those things - perhaps Ken and others can. Although Apparently Ken now has Sonus Faber which he claims is better than ESL on vocals - so whatever. To be fair he reviewed these Quads in 2006 and it's 2016 so a lot can happen - like he found that midbass is tough to live without - and dynamics, and bass and treble.
It's the pair matching that is rather horrendous
Edits: 09/07/16 09/07/16
I knew you liked the Quads from past posts and I realize that your response to the OP was simply reiterate the fact that we can't go by distortion as a tell all to speaker quality and I agree.. I was just curious about that reviewer because I always equate lower distortion to faster speeds and I have never seen any conventional cone drivers to have the ability to match the speeds of the low mass planar types..That's all I was saying.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
I was just curious about that reviewer because I always equate lower distortion to faster speeds and I have never seen any conventional cone drivers to have the ability to match the speeds of the low mass planar types.
Why would you equate lower distortion to faster speed? The only case I can think of when they've had anything to do with each other was back in the days when amplifier slew rate was low enough to cause TIM.
Also, the mass of a conventional tweeter dome is less than a big sheet of coated mylar. The frequency response of a Quad ESL doesn't even make it to 20 KHz. That's not very fast.
The speed of sound in air at typical room temperature, air pressure and humidity is about 1,129 feet per second, or just a little less than one foot per millisecond. I am puzzled about what the poster meant when he wrote that he equates lower distortion with faster speed.Edit: Seriously, did I actually write "less", rather than "more"?
;)
Edits: 09/10/16
The original Infinity Modulus system might be just the ticket.
Edits: 09/14/16 09/14/16
The issue may relate to volume level which is not always stated. And what frequencies.
I maintain that all speaker types have their pros and cons and as the OP referenced JA - well the speaker had very low distortion but the reviewer rather disliked it because of tone etc.
I think it's rather easy to push a panel and single driver to compression - whether that shows up as distortion I don't know but the 2905 and other panels I've tried generally don't do any midbass or bass dynamic drive. So sure it may not distort but then it's also not reproducing the oomph that is on the recording. So the choice is 80% of the bass material wit 0.01% THD - or do you want 95% of the bass material but with 0.8%THD? (subjective listening).
It may be that it's something you have to "get used to" and over time you will gravitate to the sound. I grew up with horns and dynamics to me is the lifeblood of music.
My old AN J/Spe did quite well in THD measurements of Hi-Fi Choice. Interestingly the THD was much lower in the bass.
Living in HK I think I could actually own a Quad - the high humidity though would concern me. And they would have to be placed close to side walls. If I do bring in a panel - the tall skinny variety would likely work better. I've always wanted a panel - and a good horn. I like the different flavours
Living in HK I think I could actually own a Quad - the high humidity though would concern me
That can be a concern but I run a dehumidifier 24/7..My ML CLX system is setup in the basement because it's very roomy but when I had the Beveridge model 3s,I had a hell of a time keeping the panels working because they didn't like the Michigan Climate where I live because I'm a in valley.I sold the speakers for what I had into them so I lost nothing and the guy moved to Arizona and had no problems with them..The Acoustats I had,I never had a lick of problems with either.I agree with everything you just posted and you are right in that all speakers have their pros and cons..This is why I use dynamic speakers for the bass and ESLs for mids and highs..I like all speaker types tho.. You will notice that many people that like ESLs,also love horns as well and vice versa.Same with Maggies or Apogees. We like that openness.
Are you in Hong Kong or Canada?
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
I live in Hong Kong now because well they actually pay teachers a real wage unlike North America. You know I worked as an accounting clerk back in 1999 making $40,000 a year with no education. Today - 2016 a starting teacher with 5.5 years minimum (requiring at least a BA and Bed start at $45,000). I would have left the field if I stayed in Canada.
The upside is I have more money to spend on audio as my apartment by the government is paid and I don't need a car here. So while that is nice - the downside is that my apartment isn't much bigger than fifth wheel.
So big speakers are out of the question. The near wall and corner AN E is understandably a great choice in a small apartment but most front ported or sealed cabinets will work fine. And the ceilings are very high so tall narrow speakers would work. Given the entire thing is concrete there is no bouncy walls or floors to sing along with the music which is also a big plus. Especially for my suspended turntable.
One attractive thing about Quad is the high impedance and general ease of drive. The problem is that I leave for a month every year so I would need to keep the dehumidifier on all the time when I am not there. I'm not big on leaving electronics on 24/7 for 30-35 days. A dehumidifier I believe require the water to be removed from the tanks frequently.
The alternative is a ribbon and I just haven't liked the ribbons. Something is lost. I could see myself with a ESL though. I may look again at King Sound. I met the owner here when we were both CD player shopping a few years back. He bough a Cayin (apparently for a friend who wanted the model) and I bought the Line Magnetic 215.
"I live in Hong Kong now because well they actually pay teachers a real wage unlike North America."
Yet, you live in a small apartment, while pretending to be a reviewer.
I gotta get me a gig like that.
I am a reviewer nothing to pretend about. Granted I may not be your cup of tea. It's not like there is a reviewer university that doles out degrees.Stereo equipment should work in a small room too. It merely limits the kinds of speakers I can review. But more people live in apartments than in houses. Especially true outside of North America. So my abode is more in line with more people. And there are plenty of readers in Asia and Europe.
My apartment is made of all concrete a big trump card over most north American homes that are made of wood flooring and wood walls and plaster wall dividers.
Edits: 09/08/16
Have you got any measurements to back that up?
The planar I have found measurements for do not look in any way promising.
Magnepan 1.7 (see link). Useless below 600Hz but would make a good if quite large mid/tweeter.
The graphs show that a Magnepan 1.7 is not a good subwoofer at relatively high SPL, which is what everybody knows.
But the same THD of distortion at 50Hz is much less audible than that same at 1kHz, where the distortion products lie in the ear's most sensitive frequency range. (1.5-4 kHz?)
Have you actually looked at the THD over frequency curve?
They don't really excel anywhere in the audible spectrum and are seriously flawed below 600Hz.
I never had great expectations for them in the low bass but 10% at 400Hz at a relatively low 90dB is unacceptable.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: