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In Reply to: RE: "ribbon reproduction of upper midrange lower treble" posted by A.Wayne on August 12, 2016 at 01:56:27
"This can be said for many speakers , not just "ribbons" , agree a bit on the lack of percussive energy and the homogeneous playback "
For high frequencies you find this to be true? I find that ribbon tweeters maximize tonal differernces on a recording, it is one of their core strengths. One has to be careful with ribbons not to run them too low in frequency or too much distortion creeps in.
One of the best speakers I had as a reviewer to hear tonal differentiation was the Apogee Caliper signature. No box and the ribbons were quite low in distortion at the levels I listen at (see the old review from Martin Colloms to see the distortion levels from this speaker...it is respectably low...the Duetta Signature even better). The only electrostats I owned with real punch were Acoustats and they were able to reveal tonal differences just as well as the Apogees...that is why I switched...the Acoustats had more punch than my smaller Apogees.
Homogeneous is what I hear with AN speakers where the box is contributing way too much to the sound.
Follow Ups:
Both you and RGA might be right.Audio Note speakers might sound somewhat "homogeneous" in certain parts of the spectrum while the ribbon speakers might do it in other parts of the spectrum.
How we perceive the sound of speakers could depend on the parts of the spectrum we are naturally inclined to focus on.
Edits: 08/17/16
Please tell me how it is that ribbons sound "homogeneous" it is one of the least colored driver types you can have. It is uniformly driven while being completely immersed in a magnetic field. Response is almost as instantaneous as a plasma tweeter or electrostatic tweeter. Very low moving mass with no obvious resonances (the same is not true for Planar magentic drivers though).
So, virtually no coloration unless driven too low in frequency. Homogeneity comes from resonances that are the same no matter what the music because they are result of excitation and then resonance from inherent driver/box properties.
The purest sounding recordings I have heard were made with ribbon microphones, which truly revealed tonal shadings like one hears live.
I think that the feeling of "homogeneous sound" can come from several different things.It can be a completely subjective thing. Or it can be due to measurable interactions between speakers and rooms and ears.
I've never noticed an especially "homogeneous sound" coming from my Clements hybrid ribbon speakers. I think that what I'm hearing is better controlled and more even sound dispersion characteristics, so that disjointed and artificially UN-homogeneous sound is not being imparted to different recordings.
Edits: 08/18/16
Peter a who owned Scintillas noted that they had no "meat ont the bones" and basically that is what I hear with magnepan and quad and apogee. The bass is thin the sound is "flag" f-ing BORING to listen to. Dynamically same same across every recording. Bass dyanics is about as poor as it gets. It's why most of the Maggie guys I know have left them...for BOXED speaksrs. Or better panels....ESL. ESL like Soundlab or even King Sound make much more sense to me. Vastly VASTLY better midrange and treble. I'm not a huge bass hound...So I could be fine with a U1 but the only US dealer that carries AN and Sohndlab appears to have had selling Soundlab when they auditioned $30,000 AN E since they don't sell the Soundlabs anymore. But I guess that's coincidence.
So, you haven't heard Scintillas yourself I take it...you are going on pure hearsay. First of all, the problem with Scintillas is that there are very very few good sounding amps that can actually get anything useful out of them thanks to the 1 ohm (or lower) load. This usually means not great sounding bruiser SS. I can imagine Peter not liking that...I don't like it either. If you drive them properly (Allen Wright once designed a tube amp specifically to drive 1 ohm loads and that was GOOD) they can sound stupendous. Bass with a Scintilla is anything but weak and boring...you cannot compare this beast to a Maggie. If you heard dynamics the same across every recording then the electronics were to blame almost for certain.
Having had many electrostats I would say that they do better a low level reasolution than just about anything else except a good horn and even then I think they have a slight advantage. Apogees are not quite as good as that but far better than Maggies, which frankly are the cheapest made and lowest quality planars on the market. Given the high participation in the Maggie forum, I doubt that many give up their Maggies for box speakers but I would wager at least as many go the other direction.
Besides, I thought we were only talking about ribbon tweeters and not full ribbon speakers (Actually none of them are that. The bass panels are all planar magnetics and not ribbons). You can argue about planar bass all you want but at least for acoustic bass it is superior in just about every way to box bass. For rock and electro, it seems that people want that mid bass slam that planars don't really have. Only horn bass delivers the texture and nuance of planar bass with the slam of box bass...but then it has to be a damn huge horn.
Ribbon midrange (and Maggies don't have this BTW, they use push/pull planar magnetic drivers...only their tweeter is a real ribbon) like Apogee and Analysis Audio deliver, is superior to virtually every other techology in terms of tonal purity.
There is a good reason why nearly all studio instrument microphones are eitehr condenser (i.e. electrostatic) or ribbon technology and that is sound quality and sensitivity to nuance and tonality. A dynamic microphone is either just for absue by a singer on stage or for low quality recordings. With limits, the same is true for playback.
You should try to hear a good hybrid ribbon design, like the Apogee Centaur Major, if you like good tight box bass with a clear and open mid/high sound. I actually prefer this to the full planar Apogees for the most part. That said, I liked my Acoustats the best all-around. The little STAX ELS-F81s though had the purest mids and highs I have ever heard...amazing within their admittedly tight limits. My AudioStatics were also very revealing but a bit too phasey in the highs (venetian blind effect) and it drove me nuts eventually. The Acoustat Spectras didn't do that due to their advanced tech.
The best full-range planars on the market today are probably from Analysis Audio in Greece. Those also have bass that can rock due to innovation in the bass panel that has a real rubber suspension for a much larger excursion.
Have you ever heard a big Genesis? The BG drivers are pretty awesome and resolving as well but a bit edgier than a true ribbon.
What you say about Maggies I would be inclined to agree at least in part but not about Apogees...they are a whole other animal.
I have heard the Scintilla twice with recommended 1ohm capable amps, the Duetta Sig II and the Caliper.
I almost auditioned the Diva Grand but the ex Beijing Orchestra pianist sold it for the Audio Note product of the year winning Spx AlniCo that world renouwn RE Steve Hoffman a second pair.
I always continue to listen to panels.. and I will keep an open mind. I Did choose a King Sound as a show room winner. I also chose Sonist speakers as a tie...it uses a ribbon tweeter. Ditto for Acoustic Zen. My hyperbole sometimes creeps on too much.
That said when we discuss long out of business companies where there are very few left. It becomes rather pointless advising us to try and hear a particular model of a twenty year out of business maker. I can audition new speakers from New makers who should be offering better stuff today. Dynamics and mid bass is massively important for rock or percussion. The big horns when integrated well and given enough space are my favorites. Commercial products are far more compromised. But those great speakers have huge prices. The AN E LX is $5,000US. There is nothing that touches it I ME. There is a reason I will sell y AN J Spe for more than I paid for it in 2004. So as much as people get on me the fact is the market speaks on this and the market says yes they are willing to pay more now for it than it sold for new. I can buy the $2500 DeCapo for $600. Same age. The Markey has spoken.
I auditioned the big Sonist hybrid ribbon floorstander at the Sonist factory in Idaho and was very impressed. Which model(s) in the Sonist lineup are you referring to?
It's been awhile but I covered their room in the link below. Unfortunately when dagogo's website changed we lost a bunch of pictures.
From what I listed the speakers were the speakers were the Recital 3 and Concerto 3. The owner of Sonist passed away a few years ago. I am glad to see they are still in operation. More SET friendly speakers with good sound is always needed.
Might I recommend the KEF REF 1 or one of the new KEFs that has their re-designed woofers.
In a small space,one should be concerned with the crossover design.If you can sit 9' or farther away-no problem.But without the distance for the drivers to integrate,you will hear some disparity between drive units.
Tom:cat
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