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In Reply to: RE: New Reference 3A Monitor... posted by E-Stat on July 30, 2016 at 06:42:59
It's always compromises but even on the back of the speaker a well designed active speaker is ultimately superior to a passive crossover speaker and to even come close you'd need one of the uber costly mega amps. The reactive load of a crossover is a real job at minimum for an amplifier.
Follow Ups:
... a well designed active speaker is ultimately superior to a passive crossover speaker
Many will disagree. You're welcome to that opinion.
The reactive load of a crossover is a real job at minimum for an amplifier.
Which I why I don't buy weakling power amps. :)
Agree , never heard a full active speaker to beat a passive setup , best is a hybrid combination of passive /active, passive is best thru the midrange/high area ..
Agree , never heard a full active speaker to beat a passive setup...
Just don't liked getting fenced in with compromised "plate amps" built in the speaker cabinet for anything beyond sub duty.
The first system to completely recalibrate my point of reference as to how good an audio system could sound (circa '74) was tri-amped Tympani IIIs using an Audio Research active crossover, ARC amps for top and mids and Crown DC-300a for the bass. I think with that system, you could not have duplicated the results using a single amp and passive crossover.
As you indicate, however, I just don't see the need for the added complexity of additional (external) amps in a top end three way system. As for me, I think the folks at Nola and Scaena do a fine job of making the crossover disappear. Neither Dave Wilson nor Alon Wolf buys the active concept either.
...best is a hybrid combination of passive /active, passive is best thru the midrange/high area
Agree in many cases. In my decidedly lower performance level HT system, however, I do enjoy using an "active" arrangement - Acoustat 1+1s high passed at 80 hz supplemented by a pair of powered subs. The mains never sound strained even if high levels push the subs a bit.
we as an audio community spend a LOTTTTT of cash on amps, integrated amps, etc.... As well as LONG arguments of tubes vs SS, design preferences, Brands we like and hate, etc....
All this to do what - drive some speakers.
So am I to believe that all this can be replaced with what is basically a watered down version of the bulk of our hobby! ????
Should I sell all my gear and my a Keiger plate amp?
Well, there certainly is a practical side to that approach that I'm sure appeals to the pro industry.
Why care if the amps exhibit compromised capability so long as the speakers can play at high levels, right?
My priorities, however, are different.
I'm sure in some application loud is the goal. Like in a concert audio system. Why carry 100 amplifiers when you could just have them packed inside a speaker cabinet.
Why carry 100 amplifiers when you could just have them packed inside a speaker cabinet.
There's no debating the practicality here. Once Harman owned both JBL and Crown, you find a lot of integration between the two products.
Concert sound systems are nothing like the old days when they had to lug around a 100 guitar amplifiers and a truck load of tubes.
Now a few dozen speakers, a mixing board and a crate of cabling and you're off to the show.
Did you ever read about the Grateful Deads wall of sound. At one point I think they used 300 McIntosh MC2500 power amplifiers and 600 JBL speakers at 75 tons. Now THAT'S how to use a Mac.
My brush with fame story: for some reason I was emailing Phil Leash of the Dead. turns out the guy was a Mac freak and I was selling a rare piece (eventually was sold to a guy in France).
We got emailing and he was telling me how they used separate (but several) amplifiers on each string pickup on his bass guitars. That setup with amps and speakers was heavier than my car.
We emailed for a few weeks. I think because I wasn't a Dead head and wasn't particularly interested in pestering him. But he was a big Mac fan and I was helping him repair a MC5200 (??) at the time.
They originally used MC3500's , then the switch to SS with the MC2300 and it was a disaster, John Curl was involved with them at that time ..
Edits: 07/31/16
I have the older Grand Veenas with the Murata Supertweeter. I far, far prefer no crossover. Crossovers are designed to overcome speaker deficiencies which well designed ones can do. Their next problem is to "do no harm" which is very, very difficult to do. My speaker's only requirement is that I provide a high quality amp to push the midrange and tweeter directly which my Quicksilver 88s do superbly.
Edits: 07/31/16
IMO, Multi-way speakers with an Xover is vastly superior to any one single piston dynamic driver , the shortcomings and increased distortion you described is what you are really listening to with that wide open driver, not the other way around , only a large surface area full range ESL could support HI-Fi without an xover ..2driver Speakers with a Dome tweeter is not xoverless
Edits: 07/31/16
If you are implying that the GV has increased distortion, I would sincerely ask if you have heard this speaker?
I have owned a lot, and I mean a lot, of speakers over the years. The Grand Veena stands at or near the top of that list.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
It has plenty xover ....
"Inside the Grand Veena
A veena (in case you've been wondering) is a musical instrument from southern India that looks like the offspring of a lute and a sitar. The Grand Veena is Reference 3A's latest venture into the market of speakers of near to full frequency range. With two 8" woofers covering the bass, a 6.5" midrange/midbass driver, a dome tweeter, and a ceramic high-frequency exciter/supertweeter operating above 20kHz (more about this later), R3A's intention for the Grand Veena is to leave no frequency uncovered, even those usually considered inaudible. With a rated sensitivity of 90dB and a resistance of 5 ohms (+0.5 ohm), the speaker is compatible with most amplifiers.
The midrange/midbass driver is the Grand Veena's heart. It functions unfettered by electronic crossovers or capacitors, which makes it extremely sensitive and responsive to musical information. Its operation is regulated only by the sealed enclosure, which starts rolling it off with a mechanical first-order, high-pass crossover at about 94Hz; its low-pass mechanical fadeout starts at around 3kHz. Cone breakup is minimized through the use of such materials as carbon fiber and an intrinsically rigid "hyperexponential" shape (like the bell of a trumpet), which also helps it achieve its goal of maintaining phase accuracy across its frequency range. That goal is aided, too, by an unusual blunt-ended phase plug in the middle of the driver."
Never implied nor were my comments directed at the GV, my comments where about xoverless dynamic speakers in general.
Ok, good enough.....{-:
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
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