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Hi folks! thanks for helping me out on the amp earlier. Now im back in the market looking for a subwoofer. I have been looking at JL E110 for my Focal Electra 1008Be with Hegel H160. You guys think I should be looking at anyting else? This is going to be strictly for music stereo setup.
Thanks in advance.
Follow Ups:
I have a pair of Rythmik F12G subs in my downstairs system. I've also heard the JL Audio F series a few times. I don't have experience with the E series.
My Rythmik F12s play very low and very clean thanks to the servo, and they do a good job of not calling attention to themselves. But in my opinion the JL Audio subs sound subjectively better overall: faster, more detailed, are more dynamic and impactful. They have beastly drivers and high quality amps that elevate their performance above Rythmik, but at a price.
I also have a pair of Dynaudio BM14S which sound faster and more detailed than the Rythmik, but they're more expensive and don't go as low.
I'm an advocate of choosing a stereo subwoofer configuration. Even though it is said that bass frequencies are non-directional, frequencies within the crossover slope including soundstage boundaries, ambient information, and other spatial cues are readily apparent when bass frequencies are allowed to be produced in stereo; not summed to mono.
I once tested this finding after I built a DIY dual-driver subwoofer enclosure with a separate chamber for each driver, and separate binding post inputs for each driver. Even though the two subwoofer drivers were located side-by-side within a single enclosure, I found a remarkable loss of information when switching back and forth between stereo and mono summing. Not only the loss of an obvious level of ambient/spatial information, even the primary function of presenting an articulate bottom end was made substantially less open and dynamic in comparison.
My main audio system features a customized stereo subwoofer system with separate enclosures positioned at key points around the main loudspeakers, and find they contribute greatly towards presenting an extended and dynamic bottom-end soundstage boundary.
The Salksound built Rythmic subs. Thicker maybe better braced very nicely finished.
Just a general note. That Focal is a very nice speaker and deserves a nice sub. The speaker rates a low end of around 45Hz so a 10" woofer would be your best choice. An 8" will tend to bleed more unwanted upper frequency into the Focals working range. The 10" will roll off at a better point were less unwanted frequency overlaps into the Focals.
As for one or two that mainly depends on room, taste, etc... Generally speaking if your speakers go down low enough then a single sub should be just fine. I place mine in the center between my speakers. However I moved so all that is academic now. If your speakers have a high low end rolloff, say 80-100Hz, then two subs would be better. Again this is a general statement.
Hi, Spout:
I don't think you can go wrong with any of the suggestions here--I've owned or auditioned several REL, JL, and SVS models over the years--but I've come to really like Rhythmik's approach. I have one of their F15s (sealed), paired with an external EQ box, and it does everything I need. I've heard equivalently sized subs in my room that pound out a little more bass, but not with the striking BALANCE of articulation and power of the Rhythmik. When you factor in its eminently fair price, the decision was pretty easy for me. I'm a customer for the long haul. IMO, you can spend a lot more and get a LOT less.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
My disagreement was with airtime not you. In fact you are spot on. Its funny how old perceptions still run amuck in the world of audio.
I recommended he get the larger cone over 8"
So whassup with that. I never even mentioned sealed vs open. Truth be told I plan on buying a Rythmik sealed F12 myself later this year if funds permit.
I totally duffed it. Teaches me for trying to multitask. Your info is spot on.
im leaning towards the f12 by Rythmik guys!
I'm also leaning towards the F12 myself. So it looks like we both are on the same page. I may try and pick one up sometime in late August. Right now I'm in the process of moving so my setup is in boxes and my listening room will be changing. So I have to sort a few things out before I buy.
For a year I was using a cobbled together Paradigm sub that blew out the plate amp. The replacement Keiger amp (BTW an Excellent amp) doesn't even fit in the box and sits next to the sub. However the new amp improved the sound tremendously. SO that just proves don't short change your plate amp and just look at the pretty box!!!
Please post your findings when you get it.
charles
I am leaning towards F12SE too. I was thinking should I go with stereo or mono configuration.... how do you guys rate JL E110 vs Rythmik F12SE
That is very OLD school thinking and no longer relevant in today's sub from such manufacturer's as Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. You may want to look at a sealed sub but the Rythmikss with their servo feedback are everybit as tight in their response as their sealed counterparts. Stay away from RHEL. They make nice coffee tables, not subs.
What do you use the external DSP for? I'm very close to getting an F15.
The DSP helps smooth the overall response. In my room, it really assists in evening out the peaks. I get MUCH smoother response with the EQ.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
The F15 has a one band parametric EQ. I assume you need more flexibility.
I use a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033, and that seems to do the trick.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
QI had heard of them but never looked at their site. Nice stuff with great and fairly unique features and the most detailed specs Ive seen on subs.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 07/17/16
Hi, Awe:
Yeah, their site is one of the most detailed I think I've ever seen. That was part of what attracted me to them in the first place: there doesn't seem to be much BS, just good, solid engineering and honest descriptions. I'm hopefully not going to be in the sub market for a good long while, but I know where I'll look first if I/when am.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
Hey Quint and Awe-do-file! Yeah I agree about your opinion on Rythmiks. Have emailed them and see if theres anywhere I can demo them. If not will just order one and check them out.
@airtime: true. I just feel the missing low end, partially because of my B&W zeppelin playing the low notes via the 6" sub. I guess ill go with one sub for now.
What do you guys think of Nola Brio Treo sub? its an 8 inch sub seems to cost 1600$ but it seems to pale down to the specs of Rythmik. However, all the reviews of the system are really positive and I've heard only praises for those.
So far waiting to hear back from Rythmik folks. Should I rule the JL's out in that case then?
Spout:
I wouldn't rule out JL, though I tend to prefer Rhythmik. JL is great stuff, but I don't think it offers the value proposition that RhythmiK does. At least IMHO.
Haven't heard the NOLA sub. I used to have a pair of the Boxers, and they were great speakers.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
Thanks for the reply Quint. Quick question do the amps of the subs go bad really soon? I read on JL's website in one of the reviews that one of their customers amp failed within 6 months of purchase. Though its covered under the warranty makes me skeptical of the quality of the JLs.
I wouldnt worry about that but the Rhythmik prices are a lot better and the thirty day trial removes any risk.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Spout:
It's always tough to gauge questions of reliability, but I will say this: My buddy's 113 failed within a year and a half. That's not to guarantee anything, but I thought I'd mention it. That said, my Rhythmik's amp failed within a year, but the company replaced it posthaste, and it's never had a problem since.
"Back home, when we get a taxidermy man, he gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
--Robert Shaw, "Jaws," 1975
I've had a powered cylinders in my music and movie systems for many years. They've always been a compliment to both and have provided a lot of performance for the money.
See ya. Dave
ive heard of cylinders but have never heard one till date @jiveturkey. Will see if i can find one to listen to. thanks for your help :)
SVS makes nice subs, 45 day return and free shipping!
REL is a sonic match (older moldels) for JM Labs/Focal loudspeakers.
@fantja: Thanks man for the reply. Older models as in any that you could recommend?
Sure- the Stadium, Strata or Britiana Series (B1, B2, B3).
i have actually heard the rythmiks and they are VERY high quality for the money and just because they are so good.
i heard them in a room coupled with some fritzspeaks speakers and was mightily impressed.
...regards...tr
I havent heard the JL but am all in favor of sealed subs. I like some of the
sealed Sunfires with a driver and a passive radiator too. So my main comment is shop for sealed. I also tend to like smaller drivers which for your speakers will still provide plenty of bass.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
The Sunfires may not have a port but a passive radiator is a port substitute and the speaker works similarly to a ported speaker except it has slightly quicker roll off. But then again the Sunfires are equalized and their transfer characteristics don't have to conform to their acoustic design.
They go down as low as about anything Ive heard. Im not a sub guy though and it has been a while since I looked at the market. The Rhythmik stuff looks good I had never seen it before, detailed descriptions and specs. PRs also seem to help control the driver where a port cant. When the amp is overdriven on a ported sub bad things can happen.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 07/17/16
awe-d-o-file: nice to see you again here my friend :)
yeah I will be going with sealed as advised but what are your prefs for 8 vs 10 vs 12" ?
will look at sunfires.
I think eight or ten would be fine. I assume an average room size. I look forward to reading about the JL more.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Thanks awe-do-file...will decide between the two in that case
Although I have not heard them Quints Rhythmik rec looks very good. Real value and performance and a 30 day in home trial. Sorry to complicate things!
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
There will be a review of the e110 in my September column.
thanks for the reply Kal. But Sept is too far :'( wish it could come sooner!
September issue is released in August.
Check out Rythmik!
on a Rythmic 15 soon. The advice I got from Rythmic was to go with one 15 in quality sealed sub versus 2 12 in subs from their lower line. My mains go down pretty low and my room opens to a large space.
Edits: 07/17/16
The F15 will give you higher SPL capability at the bottom of the frequency range versus the F12, especially the F15HP version with the 600W amp. The F12 will play just as deep, since bass extension is selectable, but the F15HP will have higher output. That is important for home theater but largely irrelevant for stereo music except in really large rooms. And the F12 can be ordered in the "G" version with paper cone GR Research driver which Rythmik recommends for audiophile music systems over the heavier aluminum cone drivers.
Regarding two subs versus one sub, it is really room dependent but I have noticed a significant improvement from using two subs, and an even further improvement from using four subs. In addition to the room, it also depends on crossover frequency. The lower the crossover, the more I would lean toward a single large sub. With a crossover frequency of 40 Hz or less, one would be good enough. With a crossover frequency of 80 Hz or higher, I think 2x (or more) subs in a stereo configuration is almost a requirement.
ever compared the JL vs Rhythmik? Ive heard Rhythmik are very musical though. Also do you think I should do single vs pair?
Thanks for the reply :)
Actually, I've never heard either, but I'm intrigued by the Rythmik website and I plan to buy a pair one of these days in the not too distant future. Currently, I have a pair of Cambridge Soundworks subwoofers that I bought in 1995 and they are still going strong.
Although I have two subs, I'm presently using them as a single sub placed on the back wall behind my listening position. This seems to work well in my current listening room. However, I was thinking that when I buy a pair of Rythmik subs, I would try placing them right next to each of my main floor-standing speakers and see how they sound. The size and shape of my Cambridge Soundworks subs isn't really conducive to this kind of placement but I was thinking that the small cubical shape of the 12-inch Rythmik subs would look very good sitting on the floor right next to each of my Thiel CS3.7 speakers.
.
.
@john: Your thiels look gorgeous bet they sound much more gorgeous than their looks.
I guess Ill try to find if I can find Rhythmik to demo around and see how they fare.
@hifitommy: I will try and find if I can demo them.
however what I see is they are 12" subs....they dont seem to have 10" sub. Do you guys think 12" would be slower than the 10" subs? I was talking about JL because i didnt find anyone else with a 10" sub :(
Thanks for your replies guys! immensely helpful...bet you guys understand the dilemma :)
By "slower" I think you are referring to a phase anomaly. One of the reasons I place my subs behind my listening position is so they are the same distance from my ears as the main speakers yet positioned against a wall for deep bass reinforcement. I have never owned smaller than 12-inch subs and I have never thought of them as being slow. I think Rythmik subs have adjustable phase for this purpose. Anyway, if you want deep bass you have to move air and that takes at least a 12-inch diaphragm in my opinion.Speed comes from higher frequencies. Have you ever listened to the subs by themselves? All you hear is a thumping sound or a rumble. The subs reproduce only the bottom octave. I would opt for two 12-inch subs or one 15-inch sub, but I wouldn't go any smaller than that.
Good luck,
John Elison
Edits: 07/16/16
Thanks for the detailed explanation John. That is very helpful. I am considering rythmik 12inch ones as of now. I was looking at their signature model. Anything u think I should look at specifically? Thanks once again John for all the help and your time!
I like the looks of the signature model, too. I think those would look very good beside my Thiels.
If you get a pair of these, I'll be very interested in finding out how you like them.
Best regards,
John Elison
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