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In Reply to: RE: Making Speakers Efficient/Non Effecient posted by Kloss on February 04, 2016 at 06:46:05
Sorry. I've never heard of Danley Sound Labs. Further, some of the claims they make on their web site do not inspire confidence:Regarding the JI-94 (JH-90)
"A single cabinet produces quality audio well beyond 1000 feet from a true full range point source." Given how treble is attenuated by passing through air, I find this claim astonishing, especially since the treble is provided by "three 1.4 inch coaxial high frequency drivers."
Now, to my knowledge, I've never heard a Danley Sound Labs product. Maybe they can pull off their claimed output. But to me, the idea of "three 1.4 inch coaxial high frequency drivers" being able to keep up with six 18 inch drivers even at 100 feet seems absurd. If they can do so out to 1,000 feet, I'd really like to know what goes into those drivers!
JE
"A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all." - William James
Edits: 02/05/16Follow Ups:
Hi
You haven't heard of the company because we don't advertise much and don't market to the "home" users. High frequencies certainly are attenuated with distance however if what you think is based on what you have heard with line arrays, these are totally different, the spectrum does not change appreciably with listening distance and some of the larger Synergy horns have been used at distances out to 3000 feet. Because they contain much more of the radiated energy into the forward beam and much less elsewhere, because there is horn loading and near constant directivity from what appears to be a single acoustic source with no destructive interference as in line arrays, yes, one can fill a large space with many fewer sources.
Tom
Hi Tom!
I'm no acoustic engineer and I certainly haven't started and run a company selling high output speaker systems. May I wish you all the best in your endeavor as I believe a lot of smart companies dukeing it out in the marketplace ultimately benefits the consumer!
That said, I thought the entire point of line array PA systems was to avoid speaker beaming, and instead to make a more uniform and smoother dispersion of the speaker output across a broader swath of the audience.
Could you please correct me where I'm wrong here? I thought a speaker had a finite output. That output could be beamed forward, in which case off axis response suffered, or it could be broadly dispersed, in which case throw distance suffered.
You seem to be saying your speakers have incredible throw distance while also having broad dispersion. How is that possible? Have you got any measurement curves to back up your claims?
Thanks in Advance!
JE
"A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all." - William James
I understand your skepticism and I believe it is sincere. Let me explain how the Synergy Horns work.
It's about wavelength, if you have two identical subwoofers and you place them side by side (in phase), what you get is 4 times (not just twice) more radiated energy than one delivers.
You have twice the input power AND twice the radiation efficiency because your radiating area is twice as large. In this case, the two sources add coherently into what in every way is one new source
If you move the two subwoofers apart from each other, more than about 1/3 wavelength at the frequency in question, the two sources no longer radiate as one but radiate independently, producing a pattern of lobes and nulls spatially called an interference pattern.
Also, when sources are too far apart acoustically to couple into one new source, doubling the number of sources only raises the spl 3dB, not 6 as with coherent addition.
The Synergy horn is a way to combine the outputs of high frequency, mid and low frequency drivers into a common horn where the parameters for each driver are optimized for horn loading the frequency range they operate in and when the outputs from any drivers combine, the dimensions are always such that they add coherently within the horn throat and at dimensions which insure coherent addition.
The result is a polar pattern which has no lobes and nulls, just the constant directivity of a very large horn driven with what appears to be and sounds like a single full range (crossoverless) driver.
It is possible with some of them to reproduce a square wave over a broad band (about 250Hz to about 3Khz on some old prototypes I have).
In the larger J Synergy horns, I had found a strategy to combine the outputs form multiple hf drivers without the destructive interference that Y throats and manifolds produced, now when you double the number of sources in a Synergy horn, the spl goes up about 6dB.
With a line array with a couple boxes or more, double the number of boxes and the spl goes up 3dB (plus a little).
Also the line array produces a large interference pattern, ultimately, it doesn't take a very large horn before one is radiating less energy outside the desired pattern than the larger array.
A video Doug made is another explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz5tIAcxJB8
You haven't heard of us because we don't advertise, we don't even have a marketing person at the company. What we have done is decided that the folk lore about line arrays has been too heavily promoted in that market and the manufacturer influenced Ryder issue makes it very hard for a newer loudspeaker company to get into that area, especially when the emphasis is science and not marketing.
We began supplying this new type of loudspeaker to the commercial sound area about 12 years ago, I invented the precursor about 18 years ago.
Right now we have Synergy horn loudspeakers in about half of the 100+ seat stadiums in the USA and a couple more next season, more than any of the more well known companies and in many smaller stadiums (I think there are 6 more this year) and a growing number at a mouse habitat in Florida.
The niche we have found is all of the larger stadiums have live sound loudspeakers and usually a lot of them and at the point we are called, the stadium people are fed up with what they have or lately, they have heard our systems at other stadiums and want a change.
A side by side demo is often enough to reach a decision. That happened here, after the demo, a well known 3yr old line array was removed and our speakers put in. If you have a pair of headphones or ear buds handy, plug them in and check out the recording my partner made during sound check. The 3 speakers (right center and left) are the little black glob under the scoreboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_usTlJi2NA&feature=share
Here is the J-1 you mentioned, actually this is the first prototype back in 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk54IFD4znw
Here is a company in Europe that used 1 J-1 per side for an outdoor event where the year before they had 22 line array boxes per side (read operators comment below). People at that event later became our distributors over there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkrZplo9xgM
And a pair of J-1's a fellow installed in a large Church, has gone on to do several more like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JceVrR1nR2Q
Our FB page is much more up to date than our web page
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danley-Sound-Labs-Inc/126113687424773?ref=ts
The first demo of the J-3 a good demo of projection (video taken by an attendee), around 2:30 he pans to the field where most of the stadium people are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA
Same system, same day (later measured to be 1700 feet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiS0-lqSUX4
Attendees of that demo had them put in here, a recording at 700 feet. The speakers are the little black things on the edges of the score board.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnsw5mb4v5vdlwq/20120726122124.mts?dl=0
A larger stadium with a system that is -3dB at 27Hz;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/98pblrypfnop0d5/20130723135350.mts?dl=0
Hope that kind of explains what we are doing and why you haven't heard of us.
Dear Tom:Thank you for your long, kind, detailed reply.
I may not have heard of your company before this week but I certainly know a lot about it now! I also applaud your new approach to building speakers. I wish you every success.
With regard to your initial version of the SH 50, I guess an issue which did come up is what first had me wondering too: Just how could a tweeter keep up with all that bass power? To grow the speaker, you had to design a way to gang multiple tweeters. Had you ever considered simply placing a conical phase plug at the apex of the horn, and then circling the outside rear of the horn with multiple compression drivers angled inwards and firing backwards at that phase plug? There may be issues I don't know about, but this could allow more tweeter power while maintaining the point source alignment of the speaker.
Anyhow, thanks again for the post. Has Harman made an offer for your company? Oh yeah, tell Mike he was convinced, not convicted, to form this company. ;-)
JE
"A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all." - William James
Edits: 02/11/16 02/11/16
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