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In Reply to: RE: Really? Are you super familiar with his Clements? posted by genungo on June 29, 2015 at 15:46:00
You may get some security by strapping the speakers to the stands, then decoupling at the floor. Or even still strapping the speakers to the stands while decoupling at both places.Just some thoughts.
I was questioning the notion that decoupling works best for all speakers, - which of course, does not..
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/29/15Follow Ups:
For a simple case let's take a tower speaker and "couple" it to a concrete floor (like a slab foundation) via spikes.
When you couple a speaker what to you think you are achieving?
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I didn't check the OP to see if he has concrete floors.Are you saying that all the speaker manufacturers who assert that their equipment performs best when coupled to a suspended wood floor are incorrect?
"When you couple a speaker what to you think you are achieving?"Proper set up of the equipment.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/30/15 06/30/15
"Are you saying that all the speaker manufacturers who assert that their equipment performs best when coupled to a suspended wood floor are incorrect?
That would be silly of me to do.
I'm more interested in the perception why one this is is a good thing?
Coupling, decoupling are both mentioned in web searches as a reason for spikes. From a dynamics perspective a spike vs a pad would raise the decoupling frequency. Of course, the non-acoustic reason - Stabilization - the most likely reason manufacturers include spikes - though (mentioned elsewhere) bluetack (or ... ) would stabilize a speaker also.
I see an AES paper in my future on this topic.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
""That would be silly of me to do.""
My apologies, - I did not mean to be argumentative, or overly simplistic.
""I'm more interested in the perception why one this is is a good thing?""
I think that I understand. In the case of "some" speakers, they "do" perform better: (beyond a perception), when set up "properly." (Again, contingent on room and/or surface).
""Stabilization - the most likely reason manufacturers include spikes""
Makes sense with some manufacturers perhaps. Also, outside more "high-end" speakers, where the manufacturer would be less likely to be involved in the installation process.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I do think that transferring unpredictable vibration to a large planar surface (like a floor) is not desirable. A good loudspeaker as very little cabinet vibration anyway,
Another common posted reason is the notion of loudspeaker inertia. "you can't push against an immovable object like a floor" is somewhat laughable. I've never measured that when I measure cabinet vibration. plus as I mentions earlier - the spike will dynamically "decouple" @300Hz or even lower depending on the mass and the evenness of the load distribution accross the spikes
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Yeah, coupling is a bitch.
Let's say you have a wooden floor built on joists - for example over a basement or on an upper floor of a multi-story home or apartment building. You really want to DE-couple the speakers somehow, to reduce the speaker cabinet vibration being transmitted to the floor and setting it into motion. Without de-coupling, the floor effective becomes something like a piano's sounding board or a violin's body. Good on musical instruments, bad on floors.
There are two basic ways to de-couple, but both of them involve minimizing the transmission of vibration. One, put the speaker on some kind of spikes or a thick pad. Two, put the speaker on a heavy rigid object such as a concrete block or pavers. Either way, the goal is to reduce the mechanical energy (vibration) transmitted to the flooring.
On the other hand, if (as is the case where I live) your floor is a concrete slab foundation, the issue is moot, since the slab ain't gonna move enough to be noticeable sound-wise.
Why on Earth a person would want to intentionally couple their speakers to the floor is beyond me.
HTH for the OP and others who haven't yet purchased a decent book on acoustics and read it.
:)
If you have a concrete slab, coupling the speaker to it can take some of the unwanted resonance out of the speaker box.
It's nice when the only things moving are the speaker cones and the air.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Just to clarify, the OP was asking about using straps to "tie" the speakers to their stands, similar to using bolts, as he described:
"I've seen standmount speakers that literally bolt onto their dedicated stands and it struck me that straps might perform a similar function. "
My answer to that is "yes" - either method will serve to protect a speaker from being accidentally knocked off its stand or eventually - over a long period of time - vibrating itself off the stand.
It's possible that doing so can also slightly raise the fundamental resonance of the box, but that depends on the box - if it's already fairly inert acoustically, which most high quality loudspeakers are, there's really nothing to be gained.
Getting back to the question of coupling a speaker to a concrete slab or similarly massive solid floor for the purpose of reducing box resonances, I haven't seen any data which shows that to be true. If you or anyone has any, I'd be interested in seeing it! Let's take, as an example, an Altec A7, a Klipsch big 3-way, a UREI 813, a Dunlavy SC-IV, a Dynaudio BM-5, an ADAM S4X, even ANY decent 2, 3 or 4-way speaker, etc. Somebody, anybody, convince me that adding pressure or rigidity ("improving" the coupling) to the joining of the loudspeaker with the floor will make any audible difference. Show me the data. It's not there!
:)
We listen to a complete speaker, - not just the drivers. Cabinets resonate.
Some speakers disperse the sound in wide field: like several Audio Physic models, these speakers need larger rooms with the speakers set up in the middle and away from reflection points. When set up properly, (and matched well with sources and amps), these speakers can sound very good and create some great 3D imaging.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"We listen to a complete speaker, - not just the drivers."
Well, that's obvious.
"Cabinets resonate."
Yes, they do. Do you think that's a good thing?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
""Yes, they do. Do you think that's a good thing?""
Depends on the speaker. As I cited Audio Physic below, - an example of a very good speaker that when set up properly, - takes advantage of a wide dispersion.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I was not talking about wide dispersion.
I was talking about cabinet resonance and mass loading speaker cabs by spiking them to a concrete floor to lower the amplitude and frequency of that resonance.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
spiking does not mass load a speaker. The mass of the speaker is dynamically decoupled at 250hz and above +/- (usually minus) when on spikes
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
""Why on Earth a person would want to intentionally couple their speakers to the floor is beyond me.""
Because they sound better that way and the manufacturer recommends it.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I can insert my tube mic preamp into my processor loop and adjust the "warmth" button to "improve" the sound - but you know what? I usually get just fine sound without the added harmonics. Though one time I think a went a couple of months with it enables and all was fine, too!I'm a big believer in how we feel about our systems determines to a great part how we "imagine" the performances in our listening room. If we have confidence in the systems - we get good results. & if we have doubts, we struggle to hear the magic!
I think this also leads to spikes. There is a seriousness to spikes, a commitment and certainly a differentiation from a box.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 07/01/15
& that's OK with me.
If you're implying that an important component of the speaker system that a/the manufacturer supplies is a "coloration," - than I'm sure that you will have a number of people disagreeing with you. Different manufacturers design their cabinets, (and obviously whole product), to achieve the sound that they want to achieve, and feel is "right."
A Wilson speaker is not "better" than a Verity Audio, or an Audio Physic because its cabinet is more inert. Again, depending on the room, flooring, etc. some speakers benefit more from decoupling, (like several of the Audio Physic models), and some benefit from binding. Some benefit more from the combination of the two.
The overall sound and quality of a speaker is an amalgamation of several design and engineering factors. There are many possible variables to even a typical "box-type" speaker: wherein two different models will not necessarily behave the same when coupled. The 500lb Karma Exquisites will/may behave differently than a pair of Avalon Eidolons.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I hadn't taken the thought of "coupling" speaker stands or speakers to the floor very seriously, it simply doesn't make much sense to me. I'm much more interested in hearing about the "coupling" of speakers to dedicated speaker stands.
Vibration.
There was an excellent discussion, right here, about 10 years ago between Barry Diamonte, David Shapiro and David Aiken about vibration conductivity. Speaking for myself, it was very enlightening. Binding or coupling the speakers to a suspended wood flooring lowers the resonant frequency of the cabinets. (As I understand it).
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I hadn't thought of trying to firmly couple the stands to the floor somehow. I guess I'll start by driving some nails into my floor. Then, after I've anchored some rope lines I'll pull very hard and stretch the ropes tautly over the top of my speaker/stand assembly while I listen.Hey, you can't know what's *best* if you don't try everything...
Edits: 06/29/15 06/29/15
but whatever floats your boat.
Have funs...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Do you see floor spikes as being good for "coupling", or for "decoupling"? Or for both? I see them functioning as couplers as well as decouplers. The weightier the speaker assembly, the less decoupling there is.
Edits: 06/29/15
Pucks, rubberized stuff, ball bearing floaters, - decouple...
My speakers benefit from coupling. Some others benefit from decoupling.
At least, as I understand it.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
If you have speakers on stands, there are variables. The stands resonant or not. The speakers design. The connection to the stands, The connection of the stand to the floor and the floor.
My stands are hollow tubular metal. I experimented. When my rig was on a carpeted covered slab the best set up was poster tack speakers to standards and spike speakers through carpet to slab.
Now I am on a suspended wood floor. I replaced the spikes with decoupling feet. The answer is it depends on the equipment and room.
Apologies if I sounded in any way argumentative. I was trying to help the OP on the basis of...1. following the manufacturers recommendations.
2. experimenting with different techniques.
3. more options that just de-coupling.I know that people have found success, (and even some manufacturers), have postulated applying BOTH techniques at the same time. In most cases, (IME), manufacturers know their equipment best, and (often) have recommendations for one technique or the other given room & surface.
All that being said, spikes vs floating devices are two very different processes.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/30/15
One of the test labs I visited many years ago - always ran their tests with the speakers suspended on bungee cords
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I also found B&Ws experiments with concrete speakers interesting as well.
How the drivers are housed is/can be very critical, and is often underestimated & under-considered by folks. The difference between the cabinets of say several of the Audio Physic models, vs Wilsons, are two such examples.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
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