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I've seen standmount speakers that literally bolt onto their dedicated stands and it struck me that straps might perform a similar function.
A firmly coupled speaker might be a happy speaker. If you've tried straps or bolts, any sonic positives or negatives to report?
Follow Ups:
d
Edits: 07/01/15 07/06/15
although the speaker may be happy and consenting just be careful of the woofers.
.
n/t
Financial straps should keep me away from Harbeth for a while. Darn.
Bought mine used, but even then, they strapped me down financially, too!
My JM Reynaud Offrandes had screws which secured them to their stands. I listened to them with and without those screws. I heard no difference. I think their real purpose was just to provide a more secure connection to the stand.
unless you want the things you strap them to vibrating in an arbitrary way.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 06/29/15
How do you know that they wouldn't benefit more from coupling?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
In this case of my Clements at least, BigguyinATL might be right.These speaker cabinets were formed using a fairly lightweight, phenolic-like material. Putting weight on top of them certainly increases the coupling effect but it does not make them sound better, to my ears. I believe that these cabinets are designed to rapidly shed vibrations at certain frequencies, "floating" them atop their stands has always sounded best to me.
Edits: 06/29/15
You may get some security by strapping the speakers to the stands, then decoupling at the floor. Or even still strapping the speakers to the stands while decoupling at both places.Just some thoughts.
I was questioning the notion that decoupling works best for all speakers, - which of course, does not..
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/29/15
For a simple case let's take a tower speaker and "couple" it to a concrete floor (like a slab foundation) via spikes.
When you couple a speaker what to you think you are achieving?
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I didn't check the OP to see if he has concrete floors.Are you saying that all the speaker manufacturers who assert that their equipment performs best when coupled to a suspended wood floor are incorrect?
"When you couple a speaker what to you think you are achieving?"Proper set up of the equipment.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/30/15 06/30/15
"Are you saying that all the speaker manufacturers who assert that their equipment performs best when coupled to a suspended wood floor are incorrect?
That would be silly of me to do.
I'm more interested in the perception why one this is is a good thing?
Coupling, decoupling are both mentioned in web searches as a reason for spikes. From a dynamics perspective a spike vs a pad would raise the decoupling frequency. Of course, the non-acoustic reason - Stabilization - the most likely reason manufacturers include spikes - though (mentioned elsewhere) bluetack (or ... ) would stabilize a speaker also.
I see an AES paper in my future on this topic.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
""That would be silly of me to do.""
My apologies, - I did not mean to be argumentative, or overly simplistic.
""I'm more interested in the perception why one this is is a good thing?""
I think that I understand. In the case of "some" speakers, they "do" perform better: (beyond a perception), when set up "properly." (Again, contingent on room and/or surface).
""Stabilization - the most likely reason manufacturers include spikes""
Makes sense with some manufacturers perhaps. Also, outside more "high-end" speakers, where the manufacturer would be less likely to be involved in the installation process.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I do think that transferring unpredictable vibration to a large planar surface (like a floor) is not desirable. A good loudspeaker as very little cabinet vibration anyway,
Another common posted reason is the notion of loudspeaker inertia. "you can't push against an immovable object like a floor" is somewhat laughable. I've never measured that when I measure cabinet vibration. plus as I mentions earlier - the spike will dynamically "decouple" @300Hz or even lower depending on the mass and the evenness of the load distribution accross the spikes
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Yeah, coupling is a bitch.
Let's say you have a wooden floor built on joists - for example over a basement or on an upper floor of a multi-story home or apartment building. You really want to DE-couple the speakers somehow, to reduce the speaker cabinet vibration being transmitted to the floor and setting it into motion. Without de-coupling, the floor effective becomes something like a piano's sounding board or a violin's body. Good on musical instruments, bad on floors.
There are two basic ways to de-couple, but both of them involve minimizing the transmission of vibration. One, put the speaker on some kind of spikes or a thick pad. Two, put the speaker on a heavy rigid object such as a concrete block or pavers. Either way, the goal is to reduce the mechanical energy (vibration) transmitted to the flooring.
On the other hand, if (as is the case where I live) your floor is a concrete slab foundation, the issue is moot, since the slab ain't gonna move enough to be noticeable sound-wise.
Why on Earth a person would want to intentionally couple their speakers to the floor is beyond me.
HTH for the OP and others who haven't yet purchased a decent book on acoustics and read it.
:)
If you have a concrete slab, coupling the speaker to it can take some of the unwanted resonance out of the speaker box.
It's nice when the only things moving are the speaker cones and the air.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Just to clarify, the OP was asking about using straps to "tie" the speakers to their stands, similar to using bolts, as he described:
"I've seen standmount speakers that literally bolt onto their dedicated stands and it struck me that straps might perform a similar function. "
My answer to that is "yes" - either method will serve to protect a speaker from being accidentally knocked off its stand or eventually - over a long period of time - vibrating itself off the stand.
It's possible that doing so can also slightly raise the fundamental resonance of the box, but that depends on the box - if it's already fairly inert acoustically, which most high quality loudspeakers are, there's really nothing to be gained.
Getting back to the question of coupling a speaker to a concrete slab or similarly massive solid floor for the purpose of reducing box resonances, I haven't seen any data which shows that to be true. If you or anyone has any, I'd be interested in seeing it! Let's take, as an example, an Altec A7, a Klipsch big 3-way, a UREI 813, a Dunlavy SC-IV, a Dynaudio BM-5, an ADAM S4X, even ANY decent 2, 3 or 4-way speaker, etc. Somebody, anybody, convince me that adding pressure or rigidity ("improving" the coupling) to the joining of the loudspeaker with the floor will make any audible difference. Show me the data. It's not there!
:)
We listen to a complete speaker, - not just the drivers. Cabinets resonate.
Some speakers disperse the sound in wide field: like several Audio Physic models, these speakers need larger rooms with the speakers set up in the middle and away from reflection points. When set up properly, (and matched well with sources and amps), these speakers can sound very good and create some great 3D imaging.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"We listen to a complete speaker, - not just the drivers."
Well, that's obvious.
"Cabinets resonate."
Yes, they do. Do you think that's a good thing?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
""Yes, they do. Do you think that's a good thing?""
Depends on the speaker. As I cited Audio Physic below, - an example of a very good speaker that when set up properly, - takes advantage of a wide dispersion.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I was not talking about wide dispersion.
I was talking about cabinet resonance and mass loading speaker cabs by spiking them to a concrete floor to lower the amplitude and frequency of that resonance.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
spiking does not mass load a speaker. The mass of the speaker is dynamically decoupled at 250hz and above +/- (usually minus) when on spikes
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
""Why on Earth a person would want to intentionally couple their speakers to the floor is beyond me.""
Because they sound better that way and the manufacturer recommends it.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I can insert my tube mic preamp into my processor loop and adjust the "warmth" button to "improve" the sound - but you know what? I usually get just fine sound without the added harmonics. Though one time I think a went a couple of months with it enables and all was fine, too!I'm a big believer in how we feel about our systems determines to a great part how we "imagine" the performances in our listening room. If we have confidence in the systems - we get good results. & if we have doubts, we struggle to hear the magic!
I think this also leads to spikes. There is a seriousness to spikes, a commitment and certainly a differentiation from a box.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 07/01/15
& that's OK with me.
If you're implying that an important component of the speaker system that a/the manufacturer supplies is a "coloration," - than I'm sure that you will have a number of people disagreeing with you. Different manufacturers design their cabinets, (and obviously whole product), to achieve the sound that they want to achieve, and feel is "right."
A Wilson speaker is not "better" than a Verity Audio, or an Audio Physic because its cabinet is more inert. Again, depending on the room, flooring, etc. some speakers benefit more from decoupling, (like several of the Audio Physic models), and some benefit from binding. Some benefit more from the combination of the two.
The overall sound and quality of a speaker is an amalgamation of several design and engineering factors. There are many possible variables to even a typical "box-type" speaker: wherein two different models will not necessarily behave the same when coupled. The 500lb Karma Exquisites will/may behave differently than a pair of Avalon Eidolons.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I hadn't taken the thought of "coupling" speaker stands or speakers to the floor very seriously, it simply doesn't make much sense to me. I'm much more interested in hearing about the "coupling" of speakers to dedicated speaker stands.
Vibration.
There was an excellent discussion, right here, about 10 years ago between Barry Diamonte, David Shapiro and David Aiken about vibration conductivity. Speaking for myself, it was very enlightening. Binding or coupling the speakers to a suspended wood flooring lowers the resonant frequency of the cabinets. (As I understand it).
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I hadn't thought of trying to firmly couple the stands to the floor somehow. I guess I'll start by driving some nails into my floor. Then, after I've anchored some rope lines I'll pull very hard and stretch the ropes tautly over the top of my speaker/stand assembly while I listen.Hey, you can't know what's *best* if you don't try everything...
Edits: 06/29/15 06/29/15
but whatever floats your boat.
Have funs...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Do you see floor spikes as being good for "coupling", or for "decoupling"? Or for both? I see them functioning as couplers as well as decouplers. The weightier the speaker assembly, the less decoupling there is.
Edits: 06/29/15
Pucks, rubberized stuff, ball bearing floaters, - decouple...
My speakers benefit from coupling. Some others benefit from decoupling.
At least, as I understand it.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
If you have speakers on stands, there are variables. The stands resonant or not. The speakers design. The connection to the stands, The connection of the stand to the floor and the floor.
My stands are hollow tubular metal. I experimented. When my rig was on a carpeted covered slab the best set up was poster tack speakers to standards and spike speakers through carpet to slab.
Now I am on a suspended wood floor. I replaced the spikes with decoupling feet. The answer is it depends on the equipment and room.
Apologies if I sounded in any way argumentative. I was trying to help the OP on the basis of...1. following the manufacturers recommendations.
2. experimenting with different techniques.
3. more options that just de-coupling.I know that people have found success, (and even some manufacturers), have postulated applying BOTH techniques at the same time. In most cases, (IME), manufacturers know their equipment best, and (often) have recommendations for one technique or the other given room & surface.
All that being said, spikes vs floating devices are two very different processes.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/30/15
One of the test labs I visited many years ago - always ran their tests with the speakers suspended on bungee cords
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I also found B&Ws experiments with concrete speakers interesting as well.
How the drivers are housed is/can be very critical, and is often underestimated & under-considered by folks. The difference between the cabinets of say several of the Audio Physic models, vs Wilsons, are two such examples.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
For years now, I've been "floating" my speakers upon thin sheets of sticky sorbothane cut into small squares with great success.
However, I was hoping to hear from those who prefer the opposite approach: Rigid coupling, preferably by way of a low mass device (strap, clamp, etc...) - the goal being some sort of ideal impedance matchup between speaker and stand, perhaps.
Poster tack that dries over time can make a fairly rigid connection.
if you just want to attach them to stands in a less than permanent way then I did that with a pair of bookshelves - that I bought wider velcro strips with adhesive and it works like a charm except I havent dealt with trying to remove the velcro from the speaker which could very well damage the bottom.
As to acoustic effects of strapping, or clamping, then I also wondered about that concerning a pair that I had which seemed great in every way but a bit boxy in that they werent all that heavy. One simple way to simulate it is to put something fairly heavy on the top of it which puts a sort of compression on the box. When I did this I thought that pair of speakers sounded a bit better but I doubt it is a real cure for speaker construction that isnt all that robust
Dave
JaroTheWise
My B&W PM1 speakers are bolted to their stands. They actually sound very good for a little speaker and they weigh in at 41-lbs each. The stands have spikes that go through the carpet to the concrete slab beneath. My Thiels can be spiked to the concrete slab, too.
I forget the name of the company but there was a speaker stand made that clamped the speaker between a top and bottom base years ago if I recall correctly or was it just the electronics in a stand that clamped them? Anyone recall the manufacturer?
Sounds like the kind of thing inmate "Stehno" might be into. Maybe he'll chime in soon.
In the early-90s, RoomTune made a so-called SpeakerClamp, a rectangular jig, which used rods to hold the speaker in place. I recall Michael Green trying to tell showgoers that the SpeakerClamp's frame was large enough to hold a wide variety of bookshelf speakers. Because of the girth of the frame, you could also make minor adjustments to the speaker's distance from the floor.
Did the SpeakerClamp work? For the ProAcs (sorry, I don't recall the exact models) I saw, playing with the tension in the clamping force did effect small sonic changes.
Alas, audiophiles did not like the aesthetics, likening the SpeakerClamp to a torture rack. Thus, the SpeakerClamp, AFAIK, did not sell well.
RoomTune went on to modify their JustaRacks, so that they could, with the use of cones and cups, clamp components.
Thx Lummy....that's a trip down memory lane. Although the whole clamping thing never panned out, that may have been the first time I remember seeing the "threaded rod" shelving concept. Still viable today. As I remember, his (Michael Green's) speakers had cabinet tunable tension rods as well.
Thanks, that's the one I was thinking of.
Sorry, I don't have any photos. In 1990-91, I had the AR Powered Partners in my dorm room. The wooden shelves were too thin and shallow. Since I did not have the mounting arm brackets, I had to tie the Powered Partners to the shelf, which hovered above the foot of my bed. Sticky Sorbothan alone wasn't enough. Since this (UCSC) was earthquake country, the heavy Powered Partners falling off the shelf would NOT have been good!Perhaps five times that school year, others in the dorm borrowed my Powered Partners for parties. I remember one dude putting his briefs over one speaker, and another guy got pissed, because that muffled the sound. The host was playing some Doors and Led Zeppelin.
Edits: 06/28/15
... I hope. Done any experiments in loudspeaker coupling or decoupling lately?
In late spring 1987, I bought the lil' Bose 101s. They sucked. But they did pique my interest in small speakers. Sometime during my junior year of high school (87-88), I bought the AR Powered Partners. Who knows? Maybe they were ordered from J&R Music World.The intent was to use them with my Sony D-10 Discman. The Powered Partners were triangular in shape. Since they used a lot of metal, they were heavy. Since I placed them on or near the floor, they rested on a rectangular side, which meant they then fired diagonally upward.
During my sophomore year (90-91) at UCSC, I had the Powered Partners in my dorm room. The wooden shelves were on the wall, above the desk and bedframe. Thus, angling the Powered Partners upward, where the sound would fire to the ceiling, was not an option. I had to place the Powered Partners horizontally on their triangular sides. In this layout, their front face, which was where the mass of the drivers lay, stuck out about an inch off of the wooden shelves. To prevent rattling, I placed Sorbothane cutouts between the shelves and the speakers.
Remember, I was a penniless college student. So I had to get creative, when stringing a strap across the top front strip of the speakers. I nailed various materials to the plastered walls, strung and fastened (usually with tape) them across the speakers' fronts. My friend/neighbor Amanda shrugged her shoulders, "Why don't you just take my old bras, and string 'em across?"
Nah, the bras were too elastic.
I had a friend, Roger, who worked (doing what, I know not) at the campus radio station, KZSC. He would frequently bring over excess CDs the radio station did not want. One lazy weekend afternoon, he came over, and I clearly recall him playing "Your Mama Don't Dance," first the Loggins & Messina version, then Poison's cover. After the Poison version came to an end, Roger looked at me and remarked, "Other than using electric guitars, they didn't change much."
For their Friday and Saturday night parties, my dorm neighbors occasionally borrowed the Powered Partners, which weren't as big as regular box speakers. Moreover, the Powered Partners could play loudly with ease. They used an RCA input, so if you used a Discman or Walkman, you needed a minijack-to-RCA adapter cable. I had some entry-level AudioQuest 1-meter cable.
That was a year of drought. Weekends were often sunny and warm. Some other groundfloor residents borrowed my Powered Partners. They placed the speakers on a dresser, faced them out into the quad. Since they were wannabe hippies, they played their "alternative" music. I still recall when someone turned up some Janes Addiction, and Heather, who was sunbathing in the quad, told him to "Turn that noise down!"
Okay, to answer your question. After I reviewed the Totem Element Fire, I decided to buy it from the guy who lent it to me. A keeper, the Fire then needed a stand. After playing with several stands, I got a better feel for what the correct height, in my room, should be. To match the pretty gloss white finish, I then shopped around. Sound Anchors refused to make a stand in a color other than black. But Billy Bags, who were in the midst of a move, said they could make their 3-post stand in gloss white. Bingo!
I use Blu-Tak between the stands' top plate and the speakers. Interestingly, when I placed the blobs of Blu-Tak halfway along the edges of the stands' top plate, the sound of the Fire became rolled-off up top. Placing the Blu-Tak blobs in the stands' top plate's corners allowed the Fire to become the self-effacing transducer it is.
Other than deep bass, the Fire honestly tells me exactly what is going on upstream. So when I make, for example, a cable change, the Fire lets us know. The Fire effortlessly tells us the differences between the after-market fuses [see my posts over on Tweakers' Asylum] I've placed into the upstream electronics.
Edits: 06/28/15
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