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In Reply to: RE: Are Cornwalls Still Current? posted by Lt Einhorn on April 13, 2015 at 10:23:44
I would like to second this poster's opinion of the Cornwalls. As I said in my earlier response, I owned a pair of Cornwall 1 s for several years. I found their dynamics, bass and punch exciting, but with lots of music their inherent hardness and sonic constriction was fatiguing.I think whether or not you like them, and many, many people do, depends on what you're looking for in a speaker. I listen mostly to classical music, opera and acoustic music in general. I like rock okay, but the problem with it as a source for speaker evaluation is that it has no analog counterpart. In rock, nearly everything is electrified, digitized and so on, so there is no analog original to which its sound may be compared.
In classical music, opera and acoustic music, we know what an oboe sounds like. We know what a violin or piano is supposed to sound like. We can go to an opera and listen to real singers singing in real space and close our eyes and absorb what a soprano, tenor or chorus sounds like. Then, we have something "real" to compare to what the speaker sounds like.
A real revelation for me was listening to a classical LP over my Cornwalls and then, the same passage over a pair of KEF 104aBs. What I got out of the Cornwalls was a generalized woodwind sound. What I heard over the KEFs was an oboe and a clarinet. On the Cornwalls, it was difficult to know exactly how many instruments and which instruments were playing. On the KEFs, the accuracy, detail and truth to timbre of the instruments was obvious. They didn't go as deep and the Cornwalls and they were less dynamic, but my sense of it was, that if you couldn't even tell what instruments were playing, something was seriously wrong. Vocals were another area where the difference was very obvious and the KEFs were far superior in this area.
If on the other hand, you never listen to such music and don't care as much about timbral accuracy as you do to rock out with a big, honking speaker, go for those Cornwalls!
I would definitely recommend you try them with tube electronics.
Good luck,
George
Edits: 04/13/15Follow Ups:
"Vocals were another area where the difference was very obvious "
Well, that's a problem. The reason I spend half my life (or so it seems) designing and tweaking tube amps is for exactly that reason - vocals and acoustic truth. Sure, I listen to rock, but nothing turns me off more than a speaker that can't reproduce lifelike natural instruments. That's the reason I frequently prefer headphones, and it is the audible difference between my headphones and my current speakers that prompted this thread.
One of my favorite amps is only 5W/ch (SET). One of my others will push 30W, but they're monster monoblocks, and I don't fire them up very often.
Now what?
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
If you wait for a good deal on the Cornwall's, you can always sell them and make you're money back if you don't like them? No loss no foul.
Edits: 04/13/15
I was a dealer for Klipsch and KEF.
The KEF 104.2 sounded very colored when compared with a Cornwall II or original Forte.
The original Cornwall left something to be desired.
The comments from Lt Einhorn and George S. Roland are not valid on Cornwalls made after 1985 (the MKII version).
As a side note, we were also a B&W dealer. The original Forte was less colored than any of the B&W we carried, including the 801.
I can't speak for the KEF 104.2's as I've never listened to them. I do know, every Klipsch speaker I've listened too over the years were colored sounding to me. Klipsch are good speakers, not great. The new stuff is just way over priced IMO.
You missed the few good Klipsch then.
The Forte was exceptional, and the Cornwall II was very good. The Forte measures better than ±2dB IN ROOM (above 250hz to get above the room modes).
Another speaker worth mentioning was the KG2 bi-amped with a JBL B380 (-3dB at 22hz) subwoofer, much better sounding than a Klipschorn.
I used to do AB tests all the time, using an amplifier with two sets of speaker outputs that had adjustable input levels (so you could compare loudspeakers with the levels adjusted to be the same when switching).
I would get a concensus on which speaker sounded better (without identifying what was playing). Then I would leave the better sounding speaker (according to them) playing and ask them to walk up and see which speaker it was.
I got a lot of people accusing me of 'cheating' (somehow). They just couldn't believe their own ears (because everyone knows horns sound horrible).
Sounds like you're recommending the Cornwall IIs. They're not easy to find though, especially if I'm limited to a day's drive to pick them up. How do La Scalas fit in this picture, in terms of vocals and mid/upper smoothness? I realize their low bass is limited, but maybe I could find a way to augment that.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
If you like to recreate a crappy rock concert in your living room, look no further than the LaScalas. They always made my ears bleed. I think the Cornwall's sound better. Some love the LaScalas though. You MUST listen and experience these things to form your own opinion. You make really like or hate them.
Acoustic horn theory and application has really advanced in the past 20 years. The stock Klipsch mid horns even to this day are basically 100 year old Western Electric designs. The stock LaScala horn always gave me a headache. Not exactly what anyone wants in a speaker.
Now for the first time sound quality doesn't take a backseat to efficiency or dispersion pattern. You may have to give them another try.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I auditioned the K-horns, Cornwalls and Heresys side-by-side back in the mid-'70s. I don't want less bass than the Cornwalls produce, and adding in a sub for fill isn't all that trivial. So, forget I asked. It's probably not the best way to get this done.
Seems there's now a pair of original Cornwalls within a day's drive for about $1k. If they're still available this weekend, I'll go for a listen. I'd rather have the MkIIs, but I'm not hopeful of finding a pair anytime soon.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
The originals may be made listenable with a few changes.
Changing the tweeter is the first step, then a minor network change, and lastly a cabinet brace.
At that point you will be 99% of the way to a Cornwall II performance.
As was pointed out elsewhere (unless you take a chainsaw to them) you should be able to recover your investment without a problem (should you truely hate them).
A thousand dollars for a decent-condition pair of Cornwall 1s is not too bad of a price. As was already stated, if it turns out you do not like them, you will probably be able to recoup most or all of the purchase price until you find something that better meets your needs.
Let u know how it works out!
George
We had the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn's at the store I worked at. They sounded terrible at the store. Very very shrill/bright...ect. Zero low bass. We didn't have the greatest amps for them either. Although I did bring in a couple of my tube amps in, better but still very harsh, no bass. Maybe it was the rooms we had them in? IDK?I owned a brand new pair Heresy II's for 6-12 months. Used them on a rebuilt and modded Dynaco ST-70, Sonic Frontiers EL34 amp, maybe some others. I never warmed up to them. Maybe I should say, they never warmed up. Again, bright/harsh no low bass. Basic Eminence PA off the shelf woofers. Something you would find in a basic stage monitor.
Also had a pair of Klipsch KLF-30's when I was 19-23yo. They actually had plenty of low bass and were very efficient too. Had nothing but quality problems though. They gave me a lot of trouble. Cabinets going bad, mid driver not lining up with the horn, all kinds of stuff. Some was my own doing. I use to JAM them things! The cabinets were made poorly. Very little bracing. Very hollow sounding if gave them the old knuckle knock. They were also fatiguing. Not as bad as the Heritage Series but still. Starting to see a trend here? But at the time, I did love them.
I do think the Cornwall's are some of the best Klipsch ever made and with proper care, system matching, placement...ect You can get good sound from them. But for me, I thing I have outgrown Klipsch. It's like you're first car. You will always remember it, it was awesome at the time, but would you want to own it today?
Again, this is my opinion. You MUST listen and decide for yourself.
You ever listen to any crossover-less single driver speakers? Maybe a small full range electrostate? Electrostatics love tube amps! Most people don't believe it, but I can drive my Martin Logan CLS with my Dynaco ST-70 pretty well.
Another thing you can try is joining a HI-FI club in you're area? The have one where I live, they meet up once a month at someones home. Always interesting stuff and intelligent people with different views and ideas. Always find it better to learn from others face to face, hands on type of thing.
Edits: 04/14/15
"We had the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn's at the store I worked at. They sounded terrible at the store. Very very shrill/bright...ect. Zero low bass."
So those were the IIIs? That wasn't my experience at all, back in the '70s. The K-horns were awesome, and the Cornwalls very similar, but a little less volume and low bass. The Heresys were as loud as the Cornwalls, but low bass was virtually non-existent.
Good idea about the club. I'll check my area. Thanks!
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
No, they were not the III's. They were the 60'th Anniversary. Check the link I posted below for the info on them. They only made 200 pairs of these and retailed for $18,000.00 a pair if I remember right.We could not get rid of these speakers even at cost! I even made a framed sales add we placed on top of them explaining them and that we were basically selling them at cost.
My memory of them from when I was a kid was the same. I remember them being awesome! We had tried these in many rooms and in 2 different stores. We just could not find anyone to buy them. Don't believe we ever found anyone who preferred them over the B&W 800 series we had in the same rooms. Even at cost they just did not compare to the B&W's, like the 802D and later on the 802 Diamond's or even the 803 and 804's. They just sounded like big PA speakers you would find in a bar or concert.
One issue I believe we had is the size and the fact you need to have them in the corners. Also, you MUST have a tube amp on them. I just don't think we had the customer base for a speaker like that. Usually a customer that would look for or be interested in Klipschorns would be a completely different customer than a B&W customer.
I bet you they are still sitting in the store today.
Here is a link to them.
Edits: 04/14/15
My first good audio gear late 90's Wrightsound 2A3 and Cornwalls. I got tired of the edge from the Cornwalls I do understand why some would like them though.
What now?
After years of searching I have yet to hear any high efficient speaker having truly great sound.
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