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In Reply to: RE: Triangle Titus 202 posted by acanuckkhan on March 02, 2015 at 19:43:23
5.5" 8ohm midwoofer in a 2-way that is *rated* at 90db 1w/1m?Hmmmmm. HMMMMMM.
Ever wonder why 6" and 5.5" 2-way bookshelf designs can have sensitivities in the low to mid 80's? Hint: baffle step compensation and other forms of equalization. I do not think there *could* be baffle step compensation on that design... not according to the numbers provided anyways.
I would bet that is a 87 to 88db 1W/1m midwoof that *might* hit 90 in it's breakup region. Even if that region is a soft one, if that is the reference point used to match up the response to the tweeter, then for sure you're going to get a very bright voicing that is lean in the bass.
This is all theory and speculation though.
In-room measurements of the speaker itself and raw speaker responses would be required to make definitive statements. I just find it rather optimistic to have a 90db 1W/1m 2-way using a 5.5" woofer that would have the kind of baffle step compensation for the kind of tonal balance I like.
Put the speakers up against the wall and listen again. If the lean-ness reduces and the bass sounds better you have a (lack of) BSC issue. This can be corrected by (1) leaving speakers against the wall (yuck) (2) using a EQ - shelving filter for BSC or (3)... Back to the drawing board!
Audiophiles often think "2-way bookshelves can't sound as good as floor-standers". My theory on this is that they've heard too many 2-ways with inadequate (or totally missing) baffle step compensation. Then, they add subs to try and compensate which is a total misapplication of a sub, since BFC frequencies are in the bass and even mid-bass region. Trying to do this with a sub has users cranking the sub Fc up way too high, leading to the next generalization: subs don't integrate well. ;)
I have one 2-way 6.5" based system here, and WITH adequate BFC and use of a sub and I have no brightness issues, lean-ness issues nor "sub integration issues". Subs cross in at 4th order in and around 65 Hz.
For me, a 5.5" midbass is too small not because of how low it goes but because of how loud it goes. Once you get the thing eq'd for proper bass response there is "not enough if it left". 2-ways that are 82 - 86 db 1W/1m often require a beast of an amp, and in my mind then experience too much power compression issues to get to the kind of levels I often like to listen at. I just don't think 300W/channel into 84db speakers is the way to go, although some 'philes are happy with this approach. I'd rather get more sensitive speakers that require less amplifier horsepower. Small 2-ways with typical (or worse, somewhat anemic) amps just don't cut it for me.
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 03/03/15Follow Ups:
Not quite sure I understand all your points (especially going on 1 am), but the Titus is rather efficient (90dB/W/m? I don't know), the 'mid/woofer' runs with no crossover at all, and the tweeter has only a high pass filter on it (kicks in around 6kHz or so). Some reviewers ('Sam Tellig' at Stereophile) say the lack of a complex crossover makes it more low-powered (tube) amp friendly.
I don't know about that technically, but I use 8W SETs with no volume issues. Maybe using tubes is the answer for the OP (I've used SS as I said, with no problems though). Maybe the OP and others who find the speaker bright are just more sensitive to something than I am, no harm no foul, the speaker just isn't your cup of tea.
The impedance curve on these is actually really benign - the usual humps for the bass alignment, but it's basically 4 ohms minimum with a rise to about 10-12 ohms at ... I can't remember, somewhere in the treble, then back to 4 ohms thru 20kHz. I lost the graphs I had due to an HD problem, they're out there somewhere tho. Not many other measurements I've seen ... but everything I've see shows it to be not a strain on the amplifier.
I use mine about 7' out into the room, listening in the nearfield, about a 6' equilateral triangle and I think they sound great (with a sub coming in at ~50Hz). YMMV of course.
Rick:
The woofer ran "flat-out" with no eq would confirm there is no baffle step compensation. This is often a reason for smaller 2-ways to sound "lean" (a term for low end), but I am not sure this would necessarily make the voicing "bright" (a term for upper mid/treble).
The trouble with baffle step compensation on a speaker with a single midbass driver is you take a chunk out of the speakers top end to provide the "net" low end boost for the BSC.
In this case, if that 5.5 incher is just rolling off naturally, it might sound lean. Like I said, measurements (correct ones) would need to be done to confirm this.
Or, just a quick listening test! ;)
Cheers,
Presto
Ah, OK. Yes, certainly there is no BSC in this speaker. I don't find it lean sounding but maybe I don't know what that sounds like (or am just used to it ... I've had these for a LONG time!).
I somewhat recently added in a KRK ERGO 'room correction' device - it's EQ/correction is pretty mild, limited to +/-4dB, but it seems to have tightened up the bass response (and brought out more detailed bass) and generally things sound even better than before.
I don't know how much the OP is willing to experiment (with tubes?) or if it's just not worth it to him. I do know of several very happy Titus/Triangle owners out there so I believe the speakers are not inherently 'bad' sounding.
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