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12.4.185.2
In Reply to: RE: Long shot speaker question about Allen Organ speakers... posted by Presto on January 23, 2015 at 11:14:38
Curiosity has gotten the better of me- especially in regards to the bottom end those HC-15s do (even with the subs shut down, they still have a LOT of room filling bottom on the 16' stops!)- Curious enough to consider a full range build-up for my bass guitar rig (if you are familiar with Fearfull or Accugroove speakers for bass guitar, they are industrial strength versions similar in function).
I have a few different sets of tweeters (couple of compression drivers/horns, peizos and a few domes like that kicking around), but wasn't sure which make/model woofer or mids were in those boxes.
I'll most certainly be considering the Eminence 15 though!
Dman
Analog Junkie
Follow Ups:
Oh, okay. So you're not looking to replicate them, or repair them. You just like the bass of those 15 inch speakers.
Honestly, I would recommend listening to some 15" based powered speakers until you hear one you like. Once you factor in speaker drivers, boxes, finishing materials, new bits or tools, primer, paint (or veneer)... You would be surprised on how much you drop when doing a build. I would seriously look for some used 15" based powered speakers.
OR, you could do a build with a 15" and a horn and then use an active crossover to bi-amp them. This gives you tweakability on the fly, where building a passive crossover is much more involved and "iterative testing" is more expensive and more time consuming.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Presto
I'd rather stay away from anything that uses a 15 and is self-powered, for two reasons;
1. I have worked with a great many PA systems, ranging from the typical "vocal only" club system in bars, to full FOH with stacks of speakers, line arrays, etc... Most of the Powered speakers I have encountered with 15" drivers are of the stage monitor variety- some not very well built, and almost always (especially from rental companies) abused to the point where my ears can't stand the issues with them.
2. I have an SWR Stereo 800 power amp (350W/pc @8ohms) that I typically bridge to mono for my current 4 x 10"/horn bass guitar cab that I can use to drive the bottom (one channel taking on the 15", being fed from an active crossover, the other taking on the mids and highs). The amp is in pristine condition. While not really needed, I may recap the PS electrolytics, but it seems to still chug along merrily at gigs/rehearsals...
Considering the price of typical full-range for bass guitar speakers (even as DIY kits), I may still come out on top (even after building my own active crossover and such)- one company I spoke with wanted to give me a "deal" on their particular multi-way bass guitar speaker. I don't call +$1100 for a 15"/mid-bass/horn with passive crossover a "deal".
Besides, it's I think it's a good matter of "pride of ownership" and being able to say "I BUILT thing MYSELF!" when people ask- it keeps me employed as a player AND technician!
Cheers,
Dman
Analog Junkie
When I first got into DJing I bought these custom built locally made three way speakers they called "T3's". They have a 15" woof, 10" mid and a 1" horn on a 5x15 CD horn. I used them for rock and roll hi fi speakers throughout my teens and early 20's - I often ran them with a 40WPC JVC receiver that used the new (at the time) "chip" type amplifier. Amazing how loud those speakers could go with 40 watts, and a meager 40 at that.
I always used a "Raggae Grin" on the EQ - first to get more low end under 65 Hertz and second to do CD horn compensation for the 1" compression driver. I always thought my equalization was a guilty pleasure until I learned that the system is indeed truncated at both ends.
One thing that those speakers do with absolute authority is vocal reproduction. If you think about it, it makes sense. The three way PA monitor has more hi-fi like crossover points, where the two-way 15/horn tends to put the x-over smack in the vocal range. Although the newer 1.4" throat drivers can go reasonably low, I don't think I would mate a 1" format driver with a 15" unless there are some special components out there I am not aware of that fit the bill. THink about the various 15" based PA speakers you can get into:
a) 15" two way with horn
b) 15" three way with cone mid and 1" horn.
c) 15" three way with mid horn and super tweeter
You can go lower with a cone mid approach, 250-300 Hz... where most mid horn compression drivers need to start off at around 500 or 600 Hz. If the crossover is passive, the cone mid can result in fewer components and and tolerate a shallower slope. If you approach the lower usably frequency limit of a compression driver, you're probably going to need at least 3rd order or 4th order slopes.
The trouble with cone mid three-ways is they are larger (taller obviously), which some people just don't want. But for monitoring or PA in a situation where speakers don't move (cabaret, house of worship, etc.) I say go for sound quality over portability!
If only that were true in ALL cases, which of course it is not!
My general choice right now is your case "b" (15"/6 or 8" mid/tweeter of some sort).
Efficiency is a guilty pleasure in this design, but only because I have 350Wpc @ 8 ohms to work with; so lots of grunt from the power amp (going active from the 15" to the mid-bass/tweeter combination will help as well!
All the key things- zobel, baffle step, etc. will be taken into account here. I'm not a "slap it together and see if it rocks out" kinda guy.
Gee, I'm actually putting more time into this than my effects pedal designs (phase shifter, fuzztones, etc...).
Cheers,
Dman
Analog Junkie
Would be the Dayton prosound 18 for $230. The numbers look great for a box a little larger than the Allen's and could do a "B" string justice. Biamp to a Faital or Beyma 8" with SB 29 tweeter and you may be set for life.
I routinely frequent P-E for stuff, but didn't think biamping at first... It however IS an idea that I've been toying with. My SWR power amp in the bass rig is stereo (400p/c @ 4 ohms, 350 @ 8) and has enough power to do some heavy lifting!
15 or 18 inch drivers would do nicely. My original post was put out there, as a pair of Allens with subs actually sounds pretty good in our chapel (250+ seats) doing 16 foot stops, which is in teh same "vocal" range as my bass with New Standard Tuning...
I feel a SERIOUS DIY project coming on for this spring!
Thanks,
Dman
Analog Junkie
If you go the Dayton 18 rout keep us posted. Should have no problem making a great Hi-Fi speaker with the right 8 and tweeter
But I should tell you that I'm not really going for Hi-Fi so much as a "portable PA" in a sense- I want to hear my bass as the F.O.H. would be hearing it, and that takes a speaker that is ironically, a cross-breed between a miniaturized PA main, studio monitor, and something of a Hi-Fi speaker with the ability to take some severe abuse!
That being said- I did check out the 18 you suggested. I also checked out the Dayton Audio PA380-8 15" little brother as well; did some modeling on it and turns out to get down into the low 40hz range quite handily (and still does the mid 30 hz range with what would appear to be a just a touch of EQ too!). The cab would be just a bit smaller and still give me more than enough power handling (amp channel at 8 ohms is about 350W) and suitable volume.
I'm thinking of crossing that over around 300-400 hz (active crossover) to a Dayton Audio PK165-8 6". At that frequency, it should be able to handle quite a bit of power and project quite nicely. That would crossover (passively) to a yet to be determined tweeter (I have a pair of old Foster horns that are crying for a project. Hmm...). We'll see...
Thanks for your encouragement!
BTW, here is another (albeit MUCH more costly option, even as a DIY kit). This was is the responsible party for all these shenanigans! Click the link---
Dman
Analog Junkie
MAybe take a look at the Faital 8FE200 for a budget mid. It's a bit more robust and better sensitivity match for the 15. Else, you'll have to increase your budget for a cast frame model.
Also, consider with an 18" three way the sub won't be needed but it will be larger and heavier, less sensitive too. Depending on your transportation.
With good parts there's no reason your project can't be Hi-Fi. I would rather listen to system along these lines than a $2K 6" bookshelf speaker. JMO
I get into a bazillion "what if?" or "try that?" scenarios when I start the design process.
I am planning on making a crossover between the "sub" part and the "upper range" drivers, then making a passive crossover between mid-bass driver and tweeter. That way I can balance the "sub" part and the upper" part to sit well in the room, the band, etc, while still sounding decent. Since I have two channels of decent power available (and since I'm not running my bass rig in stereo, as I once "what if'd"! LOL)...
Oh yes, I should add that I will probably continue with "direct monitoring" as well- that is to say, using either headphones or in-ears for confidence monitoring (in the past, even with ear plugs in, I have learned to listen to the muffled sound of drums, guitar, keys and some vocals without much issue).
I've heard way too many 15" and horn PA speakers from some purportedly great manufacturers in the field that really suck when it comes to any sort of accuracy; hence the idea of something with a midrange driver!
Cheers,
Dman
Analog Junkie
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