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Can you name the one speaker that you owned which you found more musical than all others irrespective of price? I find my littlest speaker of the Tivoli radio very musical and to me more pleasing to listen to than even the KEFs that I auditioned last month. Magical touch of certain designers, non artificial materials of the drivers, certain crossover, time and phase alignment etc may be the reason but we dont seem to be too sure as of now, judging from all the writeups by expert audio guys.
Thanks
Bill
Follow Ups:
I guess they didn't get rave review or anything, so they are now made in China. However, I find them completely adequate to the task of conveying music.
The British must have some knack for achieving 'musicality' as opposed to the American knack for 'high definition'.
I feel the British speakers Castle and Mordaunt Short shy away from aggressive advertising. Cannot imagine these being made in China.
Cheers
Bill
+1 on paper cones. I had a pair of BIC Formula 6s for many years. An excellent speaker with a gorgeous cabinet.
Edits: 10/05/14
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I think of the term musical in contrast to the alternative to the design school of "dry or analytical." Musical loudspeakers do not have a level frequency response curve as the primary goal, but are not above "gilding the lily" a bit so to speak in the FR curve in an effort to make a recording sound better. Often this tweaking involves a bit of boost in the upper bass along with a smooth rolloff of the highest highs. The widest FR curve is also not a primary goal top or bottom.
In vintage context, a musical is not an "East Coast" sound, that is a dry, widelevel frequency response curve as the primary goal with good dispersiion of the highs as advocated by AR, Advent, and a little later, Boston Acoustics. Neither is it a pure "West Coast" sound with thumpy bass which is part of the JBL myth with the L100's and similar, nor a "Rock" speaker as such. In vintage terms, a "musical" speaker was more along the lines of what companies such as Jensen and Utah were doing, along with some of the British manufacturers of the time, ie Goodmans, Tannoy etc. Also, musical speakers in that context are not that hung up on hitting the low 32 Hz pipe organ pedal "C" fundamental, but reather more concerned about handling the frequencies ordinarily found in normal music well. "Musical" speakers are usually fine with "doubling" the lowest organ pedal tones.
It almost sounds as if your definition of "musical" might have cultural roots.
Ahh it does. AR KLH and Advent tried desperately to convince the world that what they made was better than the Jensens and Utah stuff and that flat was always good!
Those stiff-necked easterners!
Reminds me of what they used to say about Harvard grads: "You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much."
When I was in College, AR speakers, and others that claimed to be "flat" were all the rage not to mention the various audiophile magazines that were pushing the same. I've finally seen that for what it was, merely an effective marketing strategy, and I've developed a broader view with respect to what sounds right versus not right.
I define musical as the ability to reproduce the instruments sound accurately. Am I wrong?
The word "musical" here at AA is almost like the word "love" is in places outside of AA. An often used, yet vague term."Musical" can mean different things to different people, and context is also important. It can be tempting to use a single word to signify a throng of things all going on at the same time. Most of us might assume that it has something to do with "music", of course. But, what that *something* is remains vague and open to interpretation.
To me, it's basic meaning might be "sounds like music". Then again (to me), it also implies a degree of "listenability" (an inviting presentation and/or a lack of irritation over the long term?). Can I really rely on one word to express it all in this case?
I thought it might be helpful if Bill's definition was clarified, but who knows? Maybe it's one of those "Don't ask, don't tell" kind of things?
Edits: 09/25/14
Gen
I loved your use of the word 'throng'.
Perhaps when the throng coagulates into a continuum, it becomes musical. Wow, what an attempt to define musical!
In any case we know there are some speakers which can be called musical in comparison to others. If Henry Kloss (bless his soul) were alive, he would have devised a way to build an 8 inch version of the Tivoli speaker. He probably has done it already for the Almighty.
Regards
Bill
"A sense of completeness" Hmmmmmm.., might not be a bad substitute for "musical"?
All I know is it's hard to rely on a single word to precisely describe THAT THING we're all thinking about...
The J.M. Reynaud Bliss Silvers - just have a certain something that hooks me every time.
I have not owned them but found the latest Sonus Faber Guanari £12K to be more musical than all other speakers I have owned or auditioned. For the price £1.5K KEF R500 is excellent it gets a SQ rating of 85% in the November issue HFN & RR which incredibly is the same as the Sonus Faber.
Bill-
I can relate, in that, I own a GE radio from the 80's that is very pleasing during listening. Remarkable indeed. It is not hi-fi nor audiophile in any way. Additionally, I own both Kloss88 and Bose Wave radios- very pleasing sound as well.
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Bill-
Thiel CS2.7/ 3.7 models.
I have a Tivoli PAL radio and love it and my other cheap & cheerful gear. Sometimes I don't feel like going into the bat cave and fire up the tubes. But I recently had an experience that highlighted how much more pleasure I get out of my stereo system.This weekend my son and I were at the library and were suprised to find they had live music. The group was named Cascada de Flores and they played acoustic latin american instruments (including a donkey jaw bone) and sang without amplification.
I liked the songs a lot and bought a cd from the musicians. When I got home I played it on a portable cd player hooked up to the Tivoli aux in. It was pleasant enough, the singing was good but the stringed instruments (nylon string guitar, cuban tres etc.) were just background music and I realized there was a lot missing. I wasn't sure if it was the cd production or what. Then I played it in my music room and it was much closer to the real thing: not just detail but tone, emotion, the complicated rythms...
Edits: 09/23/14 09/23/14 09/23/14
Thanks for that nice post.
I guess its time for me to embark on that 300 mile trip to the big Metro thru Monsoon rains and hairpin curves to audition some paper cone and some first order crossover speakers. I have my Montelucast and the sprays and Vertins ready.
Cheers
Bill
Utah Musicaire MK-17 3-way paper cone 12-inch woofer with AlNiCo magnet, 8 inch paper mid.
I ended up modding the cone tweeters to round horns.
Tannoy Little Red Monitors.
Frame of mind or listening criteria can have a lot to do with what sounds most "musical" or "listenable" to me at any given moment. So, it is conceivable that a pair of speakers that sound good one day won't sound as good as a different pair does on another day.
JM Reynaud Twin SignaturesHonorable mention:
Spendor BC1
LS3/5a
Epos ES-11
KEF 103.2
NHT M00
Fried Model R
Dynaco A35
Advent/3
Advent 400Heard but never owned: Audio Note, Tonian, Quad ESL, Vintage Tannoy, Devore Orangutan
Edits: 09/23/14 09/23/14 09/23/14
By "musical" I am guessing you mean natural and clean. My L710's impress me every day....
During lunchbreak at work, I used to listen to a McIntosh receiver driving an ADS 400 (or 410 I am not sure) at a shop nearby. I found the sound simply loveable, even the FM. At that time I thought it was due to the high class McIntosh. Later I realised the speakers were one of a kind. Still regrets not buying one of the ADSs in spite of forcing a friend to buy an ADS 910 instead of a Bose at Harveys in Manhattan.
Well, I had an excuse. I owned both the large Advents and the Rogers LS3/5A, both musical. Perhaps not loveable.
Cheers
Bill
when demo/evaluating a speaker can have that effect versus just enjoying a tune on the Tivoli. I know it always kills me.
You are right. I was tense while auditioning a famous speaker with not so great room set up and an average amp. High expectations. Liked the speaker a lot but did not find it worth all the adulations bestowed on it. A very detailed and good regular speaker. Not exactly very musical.
I once wrote to Ivor saying that I liked a certain compact music system's speakers better than Linn Sara. He wrote back saying it is possible to arrive at such a conclusion given the ambiance of listening area but he invited me to visit him at Scotland to listen to the Sara. I couldnt go but I like the new Linn Majik a lot.
Cheers
Bill
I've fooled around with most cone material types and a LOT of different design methods. Full range, arrays, high efficiency, three ways, two ways, full size, monitors, etc....
And I think I actually came back full circle. For pure musical sound I found the humble and vintage Dynaco A-25 speaker DESIGN/CONCEPT to be the most musical. With a newer version using the Seas 27TDFC tweeter in either a ported or varivented box.
For monitors types I can't say enough about the Zaph Audio SR-71 design. Simply perfect in every way (for me). Accurate, musical, wonderful extension and detail. A very low distortion speaker with natural open sound.
But I feel the main deal breaker is the cone material. Paper in my heart is still king of woofer cone materials.
charles
I found that the Yamaha YST-M7 had the truest tone. All the other powered speakers were extremely tinny and sounded nothing like real voices or instruments. The Yamaha was the only speaker that used paper cones.
Desktop system speakers in most price ranges have advanced considerably since 1999. Today you can spend $200 or you can spend $2000, whichever way you go you might find a fresh smile on your face...
nt
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Freak out...Far out...In out....
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