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In Reply to: RE: Sorry to step on posted by E-Stat on August 08, 2014 at 06:06:29
You don't read. I'm not against ported speakers. I admire some. I own and use them. I've written that in my replies to you. It's just that a good closed box has less bass overhang than a god ported box and I'm tired of audio silliness where opinion is substituted for things that are actually known based on I heard it and I liked it and that means it's the best. It's very strange. Audiophiles as a group are very smart people and very well educated and they seem to throw all this away when they fall in love.
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i've gotten into arguments so many times with ported speaker apologists that i don't even bother. no matter how many references i bring, including woofer manufacturer's comments. port fans just don't want to hear that ported speakers are DESIGNED to resonate and add harmonics that aren't part of the original sound just like blowing across the opening of a bottle and exciting IT's resonant modes. they don't want to hear that there's a time lag from woofer motion to the port's output. they don't want to hear that the delay creates phase issues. they don't want to hear that air springs are better at controlling woofer motion or that they improve transient speed.it's purely an emotional reaction. ported fans hate rolled off bass and refuse to accept that the euphonic bass boost ports give to a signal is really a form of distortion.
i knew this BY EAR before i started my education in audio. big ported speakers sound slower and muddier in the bass, to annoyingly boomy or can even have port noise. the first time i heard 4 1/2" infinity woofers snapping hard on kick drums, i flipped out. it was the first time i'd heard low distortion transients despite listening to a bunch of shop speakers up to klipsch lascalas. i had to find out WHY my friend's tiny little $120 infinity speakers sounded so much better, to MY EARS, than the floor standers that never really impressed me.
what i learned was smaller speakers can move faster because they have less mass and the air spring adds control to the woofer and cancels the backwaves out better if not 100% because of potential box resonances and standing waves etc.
just try to argue scientific facts though with someone who feels personally offended that you DARE disparage the sound they like. all you'll do is get 3-4 really whizzed off people saying things about your momma eventually.
i know what i like and i'm not budging from it. if i don't get an acoustic suspension/infinite baffle/sealed set of speakers, i'll get planars or ribbons for even more transient speed and freedom from box resonances. getting any ported speaker is autamatically a step in the wrong direction i'm never making.
i'd post the science behind it to back you up, but it will literally go in one ear and out the other with anyone who just doesn't want to hear it.
there ARE plenty of ported speakers that do sound pretty good, but they just can't thump like a sealed woofer can. i can clearly hear the distortion in ported speakers with their dulled transients, added harmonics and overhang. bigger isn't better to me... faster and tighter is. i even prefer a little bit of rolloff too.
i guess, to port fans, bass rolloff is an unforgiveable form of distortion to the frequency response. that's about the only concession to acoustic suspension distortion that could ever be claimed and be true compared to bass reflex.
BTW... if you REALLY want tight bass at the expensive of even lower sensitivity, nothing beats an isobaric "two woofers acting as one" system whether it's in push-pull or push-push mode though i seem to remember that push-pull has the benefit of cancelling some distortion too.
[img]i've gotten into arguments so many times with ported speaker apologists that i don't even bother. no matter how many references i bring, including woofer manufacturer's comments. port fans just don't want to hear that ported speakers are DESIGNED to resonate and add harmonics that aren't part of the original sound just like blowing across the opening of a bottle and exciting IT's resonant modes. they don't want to hear that there's a time lag from woofer motion to the port's output. they don't want to hear that the delay creates phase issues. they don't want to hear that air springs are better at controlling woofer motion or that they improve transient speed.it's purely an emotional reaction. ported fans hate rolled off bass and refuse to accept that the euphonic bass boost ports give to a signal is really a form of distortion.
i knew this BY EAR before i started my education in audio. big ported speakers sound slower and muddier in the bass, to annoyingly boomy or can even have port noise. the first time i heard 4 1/2" infinity woofers snapping hard on kick drums, i flipped out. it was the first time i'd heard low distortion transients despite listening to a bunch of shop speakers up to klipsch lascalas. i had to find out WHY my friend's tiny little $120 infinity speakers sounded so much better, to MY EARS, than the floor standers that never really impressed me.
what i learned was smaller speakers can move faster because they have less mass and the air spring adds control to the woofer and cancels the backwaves out better if not 100% because of potential box resonances and standing waves etc.
just try to argue scientific facts though with someone who feels personally offended that you DARE disparage the sound they like. all you'll do is get 3-4 really whizzed off people saying things about your momma eventually.
i know what i like and i'm not budging from it. if i don't get an acoustic suspension/infinite baffle/sealed set of speakers, i'll get planars or ribbons for even more transient speed and freedom from box resonances. getting any ported speaker is autamatically a step in the wrong direction i'm never making.
i'd post the science behind it to back you up, but it will literally go in one ear and out the other with anyone who just doesn't want to hear it.
there ARE plenty of ported speakers that do sound pretty good, but they just can't thump like a sealed woofer can. i can clearly hear the distortion in ported speakers with their dulled transients, added harmonics and overhang. bigger isn't better to me... faster and tighter is. i even prefer a little bit of rolloff too.
i guess, to port fans, bass rolloff is an unforgiveable form of distortion to the frequency response. that's about the only concession to acoustic suspension distortion that could ever be claimed and be true compared to bass reflex.
BTW... if you REALLY want tight bass at the expensive of even lower sensitivity, nothing beats an isobaric "two woofers acting as one" system whether it's in push-pull or push-push mode though i seem to remember that push-pull has the benefit of cancelling some distortion too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Linn_Isobarik_DMS_loudspeaker_enclosure.png/210px-Linn_Isobarik_DMS_loudspeaker_enclosure.png
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14
I know you can only lead a horse to water. That would have been my last post but to reply to you.
By the way I own isobaric speakers and they work the same as single drivers except they are 3 DB down in efficiency in parallel(the usual) and the rear box is 1/2 the size of the same characteristics of the box with a single driver. They don't go deeper. But if used facing each other even harmonics do cancel as you said. There is a potential problem if you run them too high infrequency unless you roll off the rear driver because sound from the rear driver can come through the front one and it will be time delayed, of course, and make the sound less clear.
now what i read says just the opposite about isobaric speakers. the combined force of two drivers pushing the same signal, with half the internal volume for a tighter air spring to boot is supposed to add extra transient snap and speed at the expense of 3dB efficiency, but with twice the power handling.
as to ported speakers, i just have no interest in them at all. it's an inferior sounding technology and even in the very best designs, you'd still get tighter woofer control if you plug the ports.
to me, it's not much different than telling someone you hate mayo, and then someone trying to get you to eat a mayo smothered steak. "sure there's mayo on it, but it's steak!"
yes, i'm just as hard headed and set in my priorities as port fans are, but i like to think i'm more of a realist. i'm happy to trade extension off for several forms of distortion. lack of LF extension and lower efficiency are the only real drawbacks for using sealed speakers. i can live with those issues, especially with the addition of room tuning EQ.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
An isobaric driver combo has the same Q and resonant frequency as a single driver but the Vas is 1/2 of a single. That's why the lower volume but the other two say the extension and quality(damping) will be the same for a 1/2 size box.
And a good ported box can sound better than an OK closed box. If the Q of a closed box is high(like the BBC LS3/5a) the bass quality is not very good.
But if I were a zillionaire and could afford to custom make my own drivers I would ultimately use a closed box and probably do multi amps and electronic crossovers so the amps don't have to drive through a crossover which will also degrade the sound.
yes... all that along with state of the art cabinets... aluminum is gaining popularity and while you're at it with the triamping, why not add state of the art DACs and high resolution room correction?
sure, all that's fine, but a nice simple 2 way with decent cabinets, drivers and crossover components can get you most of the way to spanking multithousand dollar towers once you throw in a suitable sub.
me? i can get along just fine with nothing more than 5 1/2" of woofer.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Or actually, a pair of Clues. The Clue seems to be an honest, no bullshit design but it requires very careful setup. Despite being "finicky", it might also provide you with something that other small speakers cannot (especially the ones with sealed boxes): Bass.The only way you are going to "get along just fine" using a tiny 5-1/2" woofer is with judicious use of boundary reinforcement. And... a port or two (sigh!). And possibly, as many subwoofers as you can fit in your listening space as well.
Try to listen to a pair of these, and don't forget to bring a blindfold with you. Forget about your neat little theories, you really need to try just *listening* from now on...
Edits: 08/28/14 08/28/14 08/28/14
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