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In Reply to: RE: What do you think of upgrading speaker cables? posted by boulderskies on August 11, 2012 at 09:56:06
All cables sound different in different systems. YOu have to judge the cable in YOUR system to know if it is good for your system or not..... cost means very little...some cheaper cables can sound better than expensive ones....speaker cables are the least important..interconnects are next....power cables the most important.
Follow Ups:
but have you noticed that the more expensive cables are always claimed to sound better to the reviewers? You basically presented a good argument of why the lower costing cable just might sound better in the context of the variables of electronics, speakers and room.
I believe that a properly built power supply should negate any potential differences heard by AC cable changes. The 145 K amplifier review in the latest Stereophile briefly touches on no differences having been heard from AC cable changes made on that amp. I trust there are others as well.
"I believe that a properly built power supply should negate any potential differences heard by AC cable changes."That's an interesting point. Both the Roger Russell site mentioned in another post and Frank Van Alstine have opined that when speaker wire differences are audible, it's due to speaker impedance/wire resistance compatibility and amplifier stability/wire capacitance issues. Russell said that some cable/amplifier combinations can "affect the amplifier feedback and cause the leading edge of transients to overshoot," which creates a brighter, seemingly more detailed sound.
Frank, when faced with the charge that his amplifiers weren't sufficiently resolving to show differences in speaker wire, countered by saying that his amplifiers were simply more stable in design than others. With characteristically blunt wording, he said, "Far too many amplifiers ring, overshoot, and start to oscillate internally when even a small capacitive load is attached to their output terminals. This produces a bright underdamped high frequency peak in the sound that fools mistake for 'detail' and 'clarity.'"
I sometimes wonder if "improvements" people hear when using something other than 16 gauge zip cord are really just an indication that the amplifier is having difficulty with the electrical properties of the fancy wire.
Edits: 08/11/12
... any other hearing impaired fool with an agenda tattooed on his forehead to tell you what matters, and what not. The only thing that matters is your system and your ears/brain. What do they tell you, when you swap power cors, speaker cables etc.?I know what mine tell me, after doing that on many componets, including at least 8 power amps of different design. And that experience prompted me to scratch products by Van Alstine from the list of components I'm potentially interested in long time ago.
BTW, his amps DO show differences between power cords, the same as any other of more or less decent resolution. It's just that he won't listen, and doesn't care.
Edits: 08/12/12
Current Van Alstine products have switched to detachable power cords, though that's not what I was referring to in my post. Ozzie had said that "a properly built power supply should negate any potential differences heard by AC cable changes." I hadn't heard that idea before, but thought it an interesting analogy to what Russell and Van Alstine had said with respect to amplifier stability and audible differences in speaker wire.
I tend to use whatever the amplifier manufacturer recommends. Frank Van Alstine has often recommended generic-type interconnects and speaker wire such as you'll find at hardware stores, so that's what I use with his equipment. When I used Linn electronics, I bought Linn cables; with a Naim amplifier, I used Naim cables. Stereophile once reported, "Naim Audio has always insisted that their amplifiers be used only with their own speaker cables. They justify that policy by pointing to the former's lack of a series output inductance and the latter's abundance of same—both of which qualities they say are intentional—and warn that a mismatch can result in suboptimal performance or even amplifier damage."
Given my experience with Naim, potential damage from a mismatch is another thing I wonder about with cable changes. Russell's site cautions, "Unfortunately, in addition to sounding different with a small amount of overshoot, a few unstable or borderline amplifiers can even go into oscillation. Low power oscillation, even if ultrasonic, will further affect the listening performance of a system and could lead to an apparent mysterious burnout of a tweeter. Oscillation at full power could cause an amplifier and/or speaker system to burn out." So I'm happy to use the electronics manufacturer's own cables or just rely on generic interconnects and zip cord from the hardware store. It sounds good, and I trust it.
Mark Gilmore who designed the Raptors I am now using says in the manual of the amp the following and I quote
"It is important to use the power cord we supply with our amps. Our cord is a heavy-duty, fully-shielded power cord. Gilmore Audio components do not require designer power chords, which often are ineffective and ca, in fact, create interference. Using expensive power cords and power conditioning is unnecessary and may actually impair performance"
I know at some point I probably will try some other chords I have but right now every thing sounds so good I have no desire to make any changes
Alan
Or, you could just get a stable amplifier and avoid Naim. My amplifier is spec'd to be stable any signal and any load. Bryston electronics have a 20 year guarantee, and I am sure I would be quite happy with one.carcass93 boy has a thing about me. Actually, I have never recommended that anyone to let me do their listening for them.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Edits: 08/13/12
There may be Ozzie, but I've heard many real world amps, and preamps, and the only one that I've ever heard that doesn't benefit from an "audiophile power cord is my headphone amp.
I am not saying that it isn't possible to hear the differences you have heard in your changes. After all it's filtering noise introduced into an electrical system. My point is that when it comes down to it all those expensive cables are made of is wire with set values of capacitance and inductance. At the prices we pay for our components, I believe such PS filtering should already be built into the component itself. Three examples are the 145 K amp from last month's Stereophile, Robert's amplifier, and in my lowly home brew pre amp. It has pi filtering prior to the transformers. Anybody that has swapped out crossover parts in their speakers know how much these components cost. So why is a power cable so darn expensive, many in excess of 500 dollars? If noise coming in is degrading the sound adversely, the best way to get rid of it is to scope the incoming power and build a circuit to sop the noise up. The reality is that noise may manifest itself differently from day to day, or day and night, so such a custom circuit may work fine one moment and not another.
If they ever build the AyreCondioner directly into their amplifiers, would they call it an AyreSupply? Sorry SG, I had to run with that.
Ayre supply would sing in time with the beat....they DO incorporate their Ayreconditioner into their amps...
Edits: 08/12/12
Which may explain why your experiences differ from mine. I have switched power cords in and out without noticing and audible differences.
My primary amplifier that in total weighs 110 lbs, has a 55 lb behemoth separate "box" that the manual refers to "as treating or conditioning the power". So, maybe my amplifier came with a power conditioner as part of the package negating the need for an audiophile power cord. Although the power cord (s) that comes with it is a monster.
As far as my locale is concerned, power conditions differ *vastly* over the metropolitan area. For example, my parents live 5 miles away. Their (and their neighbors) power circumstances differ greatly from mine. While it is certainly not "uneven" like I have seen in some rural areas, it does not compare to the rock solid situation that I (generally) have in my neighborhood where most of the lines has been recently modernized and placed underground.
In addition, with the installation of a 6500 KHw solar panel system to my home came a major upgrade/improvement to the electrical system. That electrical upgrade did make a "difference" in my sound system.
As part of the solar system the house has a dedicated "Power Conditioner" and a "Power Conditioner Display" that constantly monitors the house "power condition" for even minor fluctuations, according to the manual. If there is a fluctuation that the power conditioner cannot correct in real time it shows up as a fault on the display. That has happened twice. I didn't necessarily "notice" anything, it just shows up as a fault.
I'm not suggesting that, my amplifier's dedicated power conditioner or the global power conditioner for my home duplicates anything that dedicated audiophile power conditioners may do. Perhaps it's apples and oranges. But I thought it may be of interest and it does show that power conditions can vary from area to area and even from house to house. This may determine whether one may hear differences in power cords.
Finally, I have asked a couple of audio "modders" why they don't include upgraded power cords as part of the extensive upgrades they make on gear. See the response of the late Allen Wright on this topic at link below.
Robert C. Lang
Robert-
a change in power cord(s) is always the 1st step.
Trust me. Changing power cords made no audible improvement in my system/home. If my system was in your home I might draw a different conclusion.
If you say that changing power cords made an improvement in *your* system I will not challenge your ears. I believe you, too, should accept as the truth and not challenge the conclusion of others when they say that changing power cords in *their* system resulted in no improvement.
Robert C. Lang
There are many unexplained factors to this hobby. ...but to just let you know....I have a whole house electrical conditioner in the main panel, and every Ayre component has what they call AyreCondioner built in which further condtions the power to my system.
My 30 + year old speaker cable is Quad brand heavy duty and I have no interest to change it, However I did try some expensive silver cable around 15 years ago and quickly went back to my all copper ones. Same goes for power cables all you need is a very heavy duty one. As for power conditioners the ones I have tried simply degrade the sound. I believe you have more problems with power & brown outs in the US than we do in the UK.
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