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100.40.30.98
In Reply to: RE: And another insanely priced Harbeth speaker posted by mbnx01 on July 24, 2012 at 12:32:03
Harbeth has to own or rent capital assets that allow it to build the loudspeakers, it has to stock raw materials, pay employees, and comply with local and national government requirements, and pay insurance and taxes, as well provide sales support materials and corporate communications.
OK, let's say a certain loudspeaker has a US retail MSRP of $6000. How much of that does Harbeth get? By standard metrics, $2,400. And out of that $2400, they have to pay all their bills, their taxes, and take home a profit, and then pay taxes on that.
So, from Harbeth's standpoint, it is not a $6000 transaction, it is a $2400 transaction.
I challenge you to build a loudspeaker that good, and do as good a job of nurturing a classic brand's heritage, on $2400.
And before you yell Ripoff, please remember that the US importer has to pay for half a dozen trade shows, its own overhead, national advertising, handholding retailers and customers, etc.
And dealers earn their margin, what with non-buying customers who should be in therapy instead of stereo stores, and even better, the ones who borrow the dealer's investment to decide what to buy, and the disappear and use the internet.
If that speaker isn't worth $6000 to you, don't buy it.
I myself have not heard that one, but I think that the P3ESR is one of the true bargains in audio today.
JM
Follow Ups:
Wow, I have not posted here in over 3 years, but the debates continue.
I own a pair of Harbeths (Compact 7 ES3) with an LFD Zero mark III amp and am looking to upgrade to the new 30.1s. Yup, they are spendy for sure and close to $6,400 for a pair in Rosewood.
I own a business that does substantial revenue in US and Mexico and Europe and could disect margins, COGS and revenue ratios until your head spins. What I simply do not grasp is the:
1. Price in the UK (3,000 pounds or $3,800) versus:
2. Price in US @ ~$6,000.
Shipping I undrstand, but the rest must be used as distributor margin before it gets to the reseller and that's the disconnect for me. Asuming Harbeth has a transfer price (from factory to US distributor) at equal to what the trasfer price is from factory to UK reseller, then the metrics here are clearly off base and Fidelis is making a healthy margin and I would imagine Harbeth still covers much of the advertising and marketing spend.
These speakers should be around $5,000 in US tops.
They are $4200 in Canada.
Holy Sh*t!
As there is basically parity between US and CDN $, then something is off here. Either the US is out of whack or your pricing is not applicable.
$3,800 in UK, $4,200 in CA (if you are, in fact, correct) and then $5,900 in US!! Something is disconnected here.
Because of all our dept and stimulus the us vs uk is 1.57 and I think us vs canada is about 1.1
Not so!
US and CA dollars are at par.
Other models in Harbeth line are same price in CA as US.
Look at my recent thread at top of Speaker Asylum.
Something is weird here.
The US vs UK is acurate. The US vs CA changes. but 5 to 10 years ago the US vs CA was .85
as are a lot of people in this thread. Except for lawyers and the local public utility power company, nobody should measure price (i.e. "value") based on the cost of inputs.
The relevant question is what else is available for this price, and does that "else" sound better than the new Harbeth. If there's nothing else that sounds as good (and don't make me define "good" in this usage), then the new Harbeths are fairly priced. And if there are speakers out there at 1/2 the price that sound as good, or better, then the new Harbeths are overpriced, even if their gross margin is only 10%.
One thing I've noticed is a tendency in this business to try and justify the price of a product by reference to its exotic and expensive inputs: rare metals!, gold wiring!, handmade! with the implicit assumption that there's a direct correlation between the cost of the inputs and the output. In some cases, there certainly is, but I refuse to believe that is always the case. I have heard some awful sounding speakers that featured lovely cabinetry, expensive parts, the trendiest design (first-order crossovers, yeah!). Most reviews of them -- and they were widely reviewed -- were, in my opinion, "kind." But the company has been out of business for a number of years. My point here is that these speakers may have been fairly priced, based on the cost of their inputs; but since they were not a good value, they failed in the marketplace.
I think Bruce From DC has a good point here.
I was recently at the first day of the California Audio Show in Burlingame and finally got to hear some speakers I'd read about but never heard in person.
I heard some humongous Wilsons (I think) and THEY WERE VERY LOUD (and not much else).
I heard the small Magico's and they were nice, but $27,000 worth of "nice?" Not to my taste, no. And what's the use of all that proprietary tech and overbuilt cabinetry if what comes out isn't moving you?
Then I wandered into the Audio Note room, which was squirreled away around a corner at the end of the 2nd floor of the hotel.
They were featuring the E/SPe HE. $9600/pair, plus an additional $650/pair for the stands.
Attractive? Not especially, just a couple of biggish boxes.
Exotic materials? Nope. "Just" a 1" silk dome tweeter and an 8" hemp cone mid-bass driver, with some fancy-pants silver wire and high-end crossover parts on the inside.
Machined, military grade, aluminum cabinetry? Uh-uh. Plywood all around, minimally braced.
The sound in that room... sublime... I mean, jaw-droppingly gorgeous and musical, so much so that as limited as my time was, I made it my business to get back to that room one more time to be sure I'd heard what I thought I'd heard.
Now, 10K for speakers is beyond my budget, and corner placement is out in my room. But I think this experience supports Bruce's contention that it's not about the physical components that go into the speaker that determines its value. It's more about what comes out than what goes in.
A fashion premium is fine.
Louis Moinet makes a lovely watch, no need to get defensive about it.
One wonders how the likes of Quested Audio, PMC and ATC manage to sell similar sized active speakers for less $ than Harbeth despite UK-based production, the inclusion of high-quality amplification and using some of the best and most expensive drivers available.
Not to mention ME Geithain and K&H/Neumann which are made in Germany with the worlds highest labour cost (excl. Switzerland).
Btw I'd choose any of the aforementioned companies products over Harbeth at the drop of a hat.
... wouldn't touch any of the brands you listed with a 10-foot pole.
Some points (I'm using ATC as an example):
- priorities are totally different - Harbeths' strengths and weaknesses are most likely not the same as those of ATC's;
- they are not cheap by any means, either. $6,000 list price will only buy you something like SCM20A model;
- quality of drivers doesn't always translate into quality of sound;
- their amplification is high-quality in their, and their speakers owners', minds - but not necessarily in anyone else's. Class AB, not even high-bias (regardless of what they say - heat dissipation precludes anything else), with lightweight power supply, placed in a speaker cabinet that's subject to sound quality-killing vibrations;
- lack of ability to taylor amplification to your taste;
- not terribly impressive aesthetically (neither is Harbeth, of course).
...its no diferent for Harbeth than any other maker of anything.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
BTA I'd be real surprised if this iteration of the 30 has a noticeably quieter enclosure than the 30's I've heard.
Note that a post in response is preferred.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
And why should you be considered a reliable source on such questions?
If other companies can make comparably good or better speakers for less money then Harbeth is somehow inefficient in the marketplace.
I totally disagree about Harbeth P3ESR. I listened to it and Monitor Audio RX6 on the same day. I would pick MA anyday. There is no comparison. If you ask RJR to compare, I am sure he would prefer MA even though he may diplomatically avoid saying it in no uncertain terms. Reading JA's review of the Harbeth I got the impression he did not like it THAT much. The MA RX6 is much lower priced too.
I would very much like to compare the Harbeth with Tekton Lore next.
Cheers
Bill
Isn't Monitor speakers made in China?
Yes, and perhaps thats why MA is so well put together, is less expensive and other manufacturers rush to China including Sonus Faber.
Cheers
Bill
Ooooooooooh China!
Have fun with you're Chinese built speakers. Maybe one day when all the brick and mortar stores are gone you can buy them at Wal-Mart really cheap.
What's your point to Chinese made speakers? You keep yacking about it but present no POV.
I don't get the hangup you seem to be stuck on.
Who is RJR?
Robert R Reina, the popular musician and audio reviewer of Stereophile.
Cheers
Bill
qualify as a write-off as a business expense? Thanks. Ken
Huh? A company still has to pay those businesses expenses.
The only thing a "write off" accomplishes is it reduces the taxable income.
You seem to be saying that the quality of sound the Harbeth produces requires a $6000 (retail) price tag to be profitable( the I challenge you part of your response.)
I tend to think many might disagree and could find loudspeakers for less that they find comparable.
The "heritage" issue often means that some will pay a premium for a particular brand for any number of reasons. Harbeth certainly knows this.
People will always pay a premium for the name. Whether it is Harbeth, Wilson, etc, etc. I haven't heard every speaker out there but I'm sure there are speakers being made from some small companies than can compete with the big names at a lower price point. The problem is most people want name brand products and would rather pay more money for them vs buying from
an unknown company.
Bull!! Either you are somehow associated with the company or rampant fan boy. Either way wake up and smell the coffee. There are speakers as good or better than these for 1/3 the price.
then YOU buy them. someone else will buy the harbeths as $6k and feel like he got his money's worth.
...regards...tr
What speakers are you talking about?
...anyone would get upset about the price of a product they don't want to buy.
Odd.
entee
...regards...tr
The whole crazy insane price thing pulls up the price of other products.
This is all aided by the mags. I could waste time by getting quotes from TAS and Stereophile were the "reviewer" opines that, let's say, a $26,000 pair of small monitor speakers are so reasonably priced because brand "X" monitors are $52,000 a pair.
It will eventually affect YOU in the pocketbook if you buy any audio equipment, but for some reason your rugged American individualism prevents you from accepting the fact.
> > The whole crazy insane price thing pulls up the price
> > of other products.... It will eventually affect YOU
> > in the pocketbook...
Sounds like you're of the opinion the world should run according to your rules. Good luck with that.
Your comment on pricing has never been a universal truth. We have plenty of products -- particularly electronics -- that used to be very expensive that are now cheap. My first computer with floppy drives cost $2,000 at a time when an IBM XT was $5,000. IBM did not pull up the price of other computers.
The first RCA Victor color TV cost $1,000 in 1954 and was down to $500 ten years later. Today you can buy a 25" flat screen (larger picture) with high definition for prices that start under $150.
This history of retail prices is that if someone can still make a profit while undercutting someone else's price, they'll do it.
While it's sad that, IMO, some companies in the "high end" of audio are more into exclusivity and status than performance, that only works for a small percentage of buyers.
If people think Harbeth is too expensive for what they're getting, then the market will eventually take care of that problem.
I did a rough check of the number of speaker models on the market a few years back and quit counting at 1,000. If you're telling me that a person can't find a speaker they like at a price they want to pay from among the currently available models, then nothing will ever make that person happy.
I ain't telling you anything as you have it all figured out.
Good luck with that!
Yes,
Forget about reason: we can't let that get in the way of the truth, or your sour grapes.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
> > I ain't telling you anything as you have it all figured out.
> >
> > Good luck with that!
... is the world doesn't run according to my rules. If someone wants to make a product and charge more than I'm willing to pay, that's fine by me. I don't buy it.
That's worked out wonderfully for me -- I have no complaints whatsoever.
From what you are saying it seems like Harbeth is leaving a lot of money on the table. They are doing all the work and only getting 2400.00. Maybe they should change their business plan and sell direct to the consumer. This way they cut out the middleman and can offer a better deal to the consumer. Let's say they charge 3500.00 to the end user and make an 1100.00 profit over what they are making now. The customer is happy saving 2500.00 and Harbeth increases their profits. Sound like a win-win situation to me.
...that people around here know exactly how business owners should run their company!
Maybe you should tell them directly and they can finally get themselves straightened out after 35 years.
from Mr. Sudz.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
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