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Depending on the definition of big, I'm not talking VOTT I'm talking Generic, typical tall fat black old school tower with 2 "12" drivers, Dome tweeter midrange, about a foot deep. your average cliche "too big" speakers, heck a lot of normal sized modern towers are considered to big even for a spacious room.
I always wondered why people including self proclaimed "speaker lovers" whinge at the notion of a large loudspeaker in an average, to small sixed room. I'm not talking New-york crackerbox apartment sized. Thats too small even for a pair of HMP 40's
I scoured the net and found a thread about "speaker porn" and someone made a post the quote is below.
"Large Tannoys are owned by many music lovers whereas many "audiophiles" own pathetic little speakerettes that fail spectacularly to get the essence of much music across. But they often image well"
I do agree that a lot of small stanmounts do indeed have great imaging but, more often than not they lack the Aplomb and visceral impact needed for dynamic and complex music like rock and gigantic symphonic orchestras.
A subwoofer can substitute for the lack of bass in a loudspeaker, but more often than not subwoofers often are just as vulnerable to room problems and port noise/wooly bass as a big pair of louspeakers..
The question is what exacly is the deal with.. big speakers and smaller rooms.. Even a Decent looking/sounding set and a non-clutterd enviroment.
I admit I have a ton of stuff in my room about 170 CDs 1500 DVD's etc. and I am moving to another house with the family in a bigger city. they are scouting a house with big closets and big bedrooms we're decluttering as we go.
I'm in the mood for a second pair of big speskers, I love big beefy speakers and I won't back down, no matter what I'm aftraid if I get a girlfreind she'll make me get rid of big speakers and stuff and I'll have to buy smaller speakers with too many highs. (I'm an idiot)
I like my rock music loud.
Follow Ups:
There's nothing inherently wrong with a big speaker in a small room, although1. You will have gain below the room's fundamental resonance (about 1130 / longest dimension in feet / 2 with phase shift from the flexing walls high-pass function affecting the frequency). This won't be problematic with a big speaker that doesn't play low like a 2 cubic foot 95dB/1W/1 meter sealed box that's -3dB @ 80Hz. You can work around it electronically with a shelving high-pass filter. OTOH, if your religious beliefs dictate consumer speakers (where big implies low bass) and preclude dealing with such problems via a parametric equalizer you will have problems.
2. You want to sit far enough back to be out of the acoustic near field where more separation between sound sources increases the distance. If your big speaker has midrange + high frequency drivers close together this isn't an issue. If it's like a Dunlavy SC-IV you might run out of space backing up the speakers or listener (4' from either to the wall behind is a nice start to reduce bass issues).
Edits: 07/02/12 07/02/12 07/02/12
Fairly tight radiation pattern control well down into the midrange is arguably more beneficial in a small room than in a big room, as it allows you to aim the speakers so as to maximize the time interval before the onset of at least some of the early reflections. Ironically it is big speakers, not small speakers, that do the best job of this, assuming they are designed with radiation pattern control in mind, simply because a small speaker cannot effectively control the radiation pattern when the wavelengths become significantly longer than the speaker's width (cardioids excepted). In other words, if done correctly, I think a good big speaker can indeed outperform a good small speaker in a small room. And if your living space is crowded you can put your books and stuff on top of a big speaker, but not on top of a small one, so there is less net loss of usable horizontal surface space in the room with big speakers.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
To me critical to getting proper sound particularly in smaller spaces or closer listening positions.
My Big speakers have passive radiators and are 2-way. The Sub-woofer is ported.
My EPI Model 70 Series III bookshelf speakers are sealed.
Not sure what you mean - Duke and Kloss were referring to directivity, not bass alignments.
Perhaps I missed some humour - text-based communication and different countries etc...
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
... that might work well in a small room, as you say. But many other big speakers are 3 or 4-way designs that won't integrate properly unless the listener sits farther away from them, regardless of pattern control. Right?
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
"Your big speakers are fairly unusual two-way designs... that might work well in a small room, as you say. But many other big speakers are 3 or 4-way designs that won't integrate properly unless the listener sits farther away from them, regardless of pattern control. Right?"Good question; I've been looking at the role of radiation pattern width and uniformity in a small room, and don't think I'm qualified to reliably comment on the distance at which 3 or 4 way big speakers' drivers integrate properly. My guess is that it depends on the specifics. I can tell you that my woofer/horn hybrid two-ways (1.5 kHz ballpark crossvoer) seem to integrate well at about 3 feet as long as your ears are on the tweeter axis; move your ears down to the midpoint and you can hear the vertical discontinuity unless you also move back to about 5 feet.
Of course a smaller room usually gives more boundary reinforcement in the bass region, which starts to take effect higher up than in a big room. That can work against big speakers. While mine are big, I trade off much of that big for efficiency rather than deep bass extension, and also have a user-adjustable bass tuning system that helps adapt the low end to the room.
Now there is really no reason why anyone can't lower the tuning frequency of a ported box that is putting out too much bass for the room. Simply figure out a good way to decrease the cross-sectional area of the port over its entire length, and that will drop the tuning frequency. The theoretical downside is an increase in air velocity in the narrowed port which can lead to chuffing, but in a small room you aren't going to push a big speaker real hard anyway so in practice that's not a problem. Or stuff the port with damping material. Or stuff the box. Or convert it into a sealed box by sealing off the port. There are usually ways to reduce the bass output of a big ported speaker so that it works better in a small room.
One final technique that I haven't tried is to place a small subwoofer very close to one of the big speakers and operate the sub in reverse polarity. By varying the level of the sub, you can theoretically vary how much of the big speaker's bass it is cancelling. If your big speakers are sealed boxes, which don't give you the option of changing the tuning frequency merely by messing with the port, this might be a reasonable approach.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Edits: 07/01/12
.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
I agree with duke...
For some reason big speakers sound much better in my room than little ones. I think I'll get rid of my Sony SSB-3000's though they sound dull compared to my other speakers...
Not sure what your definition of big is, but I am having a pair a ~300L MLTLs built (loaded with nominally 16" mid-bass drivers) for a small room. The small rooom size and front wall loading was considered in the design to ensure even bass response. A small-medium sized room is aolmost essential...
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
All speakers have their sweet spot is as far as the volume output is concerned, too loud they are screaming, too low a volume the low end just is not there, it is in that middle where they sound balanced and at their absolute best.
With larger speakers the middle point can be too loud for very small spaces and if you lower the volume the bass suffers.
Vahe
If you are talking about conventional box speakers, some big speakers are less suited to a small room, though almost any speaker can be made to work reasonably well by proper placement and the right complement of upstream equipment. The potential problems involve excessive bass energy and integration of the drivers--some big speakers are designed for a listener sitting at least a certain distance back before the drivers integrate and the frequency balance is right.
If you are talking about some big high efficiency systems (e.g., horns and single driver systems), that is an entirely different matter. A lot of these work best in small rooms. Many actually do not have much in the way of low frequency response so they would not overload a room. Many work well pushed to the corners or near a back wall (common placement in small rooms) and many sound particularly good when playing at lower volume (another common requirement for small room/apartment listening).
Not necessarily...we're enjoying big speakers in a small room with fine results, imo. The transmission line helps with the room acoustics and the speaker aesthetic is gorgeous ;-)
We have Dali MegaLine loudspeakers.
Vbr,
Sam
Not if they are big planars, those can work well in quite small rooms.
in a 12x15 room :)
sounded quite amazing :)...will se when they come back from mormonia....
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
It depends. It could depend on the speakers and it could depend on the room. It could also depend on the person.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
If your girlfriend demands that you get rid of your big speakers, get another girlfriend.
Why chain yourself to someone who doesn't care about your hobbies or what makes you happy? If she can't live with something as harmless as big speakers she's far too self-centered and shallow to be worrying about.
I dont have a girlfreind yet because I'm a picky non talkative shy bloke.
To be honest i have had small sattelite spears before with a different AVR and the "new" setup with the large sony speakers has a lot more authority.
Listening to led zeppelin on a small sattelite system is no match for a
fullrange setup with a sub. Sub + sattelit ecombos are often shallow in the mid-bass area because the speakers are too small to reproduce them with any authority.
I was watching harry potter last nght and everytime something big happened it WAS big. I also have a small sub-woofer which adds even more
re-inforcement to the mains my rears are full-range too. everything is set to small
I have a small room, but like my music fairly loud and with visceral impact.
I've only found one large speaker that works in my room: the Snell CV.
I tried the Aerial 10T, B&W 801 Matrix III and the Gallo 3.1 (not so big, but large woofer) and all of them had way too much bass for the room and it got in the way of the rest of the music.
I hope to get another pair of the Snell's one day when I can afford to throw some money at my system again.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I'm not disputing your experience, but that doesn't seem small to me.
I would imagine that a large speaker with well-damped, or slightly overdamped, bass would work just fine in such a room. Of course, both speakers and listening seat would have to be pretty far out in the room.
I'm using PBN Montana SPX in a room 16.5' x 10.5', in almost nearfield configuration (speakers and seat form equilateral 6.5' triangle). Of course, it's 2x8" woofers, not 10" or 12".
...on one side of the room. There is no changing it.
So while the room is not small, I'm sort of only using half of it.
So, speakers are about 1' out from wall and my head is 1' from rear wall.
Left speaker about 3' from corner the other no where near a corner.
Much less than ideal, but it has worked with the CV and my current speakers.
Here is an old picture ...
Here are the current speakers (but amp and pre are different now)
Just to the right of the right speaker is the door to the garage. I can't put the system on the short wall because of the way the stairs enter the room.
It is what it is and thankfully I've figured out what works.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Although not ideal, your arrangement is quite workable.
I reacall reading an interview where it was suggested that if you can't get your head your several feet away from the rear wall you are better off having it where you do... something about nulls or some such. As for speakers near the front wall, take advantage of it and use speakers tht are designed for wall-loading.
I am in a similar situation to you and am looking forward to running a pair of 300 litre MLTL speakers, loaded with (nominal) 16" diameter drivers; larger than what most people would consider large. They are intentionally designed for a *small* room.
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
...and also cannot remember where.
After reading it I pushed the couch right up against the back wall and things certainly did improve, especially in the bottom end.
Best of luck with your new speakers.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
"I'm not talking VOTT I'm talking Generic, typical tall fat black old school tower with 2 "12" drivers, Dome tweeter midrange, about a foot deep. your average cliche "too big" speakers, heck a lot of normal sized modern towers are considered to big even for a spacious room. "Whether VOTT or not, size doesn't matter - coherence does. (Edit: "size doesn't matter" is an over-statement. My intent was to say that coherence is the key, not the size.)
That is, if you're into detail and sound quality. If you're not, and it's just about the volume level and the cool factor, then it doesn't matter.
"Typical tall fat black old school tower".
Give me an example. Do you even read the stuff you write?
"Dome tweeter midrange." I really gotta see one of those.
"I'm in the mood for a second pair of big speskers, I love big beefy speakers and I won't back down, no matter what I'm aftraid if I get a girlfreind she'll make me get rid of big speakers and stuff and I'll have to buy smaller speakers with too many highs. (I'm an idiot) "
It seems that you've already had too many highs.
Raymond, seriously, slap yourself upside the head and throw some cold water on your face. Then take a Physics 101 class. You're a mess.
Edits: 06/28/12 06/28/12 06/29/12
"It seems that you've already had too many highs."
Quote of the day. :-)
Jack
> "Dome tweeter midrange." I really gotta see one of those.
Actually, there is such a thing. Thiel uses them in all their speakers. The one in their top-of-the-line CS3.7 is exceptional. I have never heard a speaker play so loud and yet sound so smooth and musical as a pair of Thiel CS3.7's when being driven by 600-watt Krell monoblocks.
.........
Big Tannoys work surprisingly well in small rooms.
Suppose this is due to them being DualConcentrics and therefore not needing space for the driver outputs to merge properly.
In fact if you stand right between them they just sound like giant headphones but with bass you can feel.
IMO, the only thing big speakers buy you is bass. Other than that, they detract from good imaging and soundstage. That's why I like small speakers with a subwoofer in a small room. I like my speakers placed well out into the room for the best imaging and soundstage, but woofers don't produce deep bass when placed far away from walls. That's why I'm a firm believer in the satellite/subwoofer arrangement. It just sounds better to me.If you want more volume in a small room, there are small floor standing speakers that will provide loud volume levels. However, I think you might still need a subwoofer against a wall to get strong deep bass. The subwoofer need only reproduce the bottom octave, but it really adds to the realism. I have my subwoofer's low-pass filter set for 55-Hz. All you hear with the satellites turned off is a deep rumble, but it fills out the bottom end beautifully.
Anyway, I like small speakers with a subwoofer in a small room. And, I like my subwoofer placed behind my listening position about the same distance from my ears as the satellites in front.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 06/29/12
I think that can certainly be the case when the large speakers are built with the some type of approach as small speakers. Most seem to be, ie. inefficient, small, high-Q drivers in large(ish), nicely-finished bass reflex boxes.Also, many (most) large speakers are designed specifically to take advantage of a larger space.
There are other approaches, but you won't find them in many HiFi Couture outlets. Convenient, fashionable, accessible and almost universally applicable in modern systems. Which is fine, but there are other ways.
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
Edits: 06/30/12 06/30/12
I miscalculated my room size its much smaller than "22 x 14" somebody stole my measuring tape..
Currently, my "big" stereo resides in the smallest room in which I've ever had a stereo system. With a pair of nearly full range floor standers (NHT Model 2 -- 40Hz-22kHz) plus a powered subwoofer (M&K 12", also sealed cabinet), I'm getting great sound in a room that's just about 12'x15'x9' (speakers along 12' front wall). I actually have two more 2.1 stereos in this room at the moment - the TV setup and the laptop's "desktop" system - each consisting of a pair of mini-monitors and a subwoofer. Though it's perhaps not entirely fair to compare the little systems against their bigger, "featured" sibling, I do notice a distinct advantage with the big system.
Disregarding the TV system for the moment (I do care about it, but not nearly as much as I care about the other two), while the computer's system sounds great, there's simply no contest with the larger system. Without question, the big system sounds more "life size". The computer's system is in the probable process of sounding even better with the trickling in of a couple more components over the next couple weeks (new "fuller range" satellite speakers and a small hybrid tube/ss amp).
I'm curious to hear what will happen with the following changes to the computer's system...
Currently:
Digital USB from computer to Bifrost DAC (big system has its own Bifrost)
NHT Super Zero mini-monitors (low end of frequency range being -3dB at 85Hz)
HSU Research STF-1 subwoofer (down firing 8", ported, pretty large cabinet). With the Super Zero's low end already rolled off at 85Hz, the HSU sub's "high end" of 90Hz is cutting it pretty close, though the combination is sounding pretty good. Still though, I'm working on getting small speakers with a lower low end, to take some pressure off the sub.
Dayton DTA-100a Tripath 50 wpc integrated amp
Coming changes (orders placed - now on their way):
1) Napa Acoustics NA-208S ported mini-monitors (low end of frequency range - 55Hz)
2) Maverick Audio TubeMagic A1 hybrid tube/class A/B integrated amp (20 wpc)
To be fair:
I don't expect either the 50 wpc Tripath or the 20 wpc hybrid to compete with the big stereo's 50 wpc pure class A Forté 4a. Nor do I expect the 8" HSU sub to compete with the M&K 12", but I must say, that little HSU goes surprisingly low, with high quality sound!
As mentioned above however, there's no way around the reality here - the "big" system is far and away the most "life size" and pleasing sound in this small room.
I am planning to switch to floor standing speakers because I want more volume than my little stand mounted satellites can provide. Furthermore, I still intend to use my subwoofer to reinforce the deep bass in the lowest octave. The floor standers I'm planning to buy have a small footprint and will take no more space than my stand mounted satellites. There are definitely different ways to achieve good sound. For me personally, though, small speakers seem to look and perform better in a small room.
Best regards,
John Elison
Not for me. I have never heard a sub/satellite system that sounds as good and integrated as a nice big 3 way, unless maybe using two subs as stands for the sats.
If you've got a 3 way with woofers that are crossed over at 80 hz it sounds a lot different than a system with woofers that are crossed over at 300 hz. I find sub/sat systems really inadequate with large scale music. There are limits but I'd much rather have speakers that were a little too much for a room than ones that can't adequately fill it. You can tame the room. If the speakers can't fill the room properly you need new ones.
Once done positioning and getting polarity right,turn down the gain on the subs until you almost can't hear them. Now turn them down a 'steenth more.
Play some music with the main amp off (obviously this only works with a pre-amp, line level sub output and main amp), and listen for output from the subs. If you can faintly hear a marching band practicing 3 or 4 blocks away, you're there.
Put on an album you're really familiar with and smile as fuller, deeper bass than you've heard before issues forth but you can't tell it's not from your main speakers.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
In a small, 12x15, room.In case you're wondering about boominess, people ask if I have the subs on. I just smile.(ignore the 8"'rs on top of the subs, those are TV speakers)
The only thing that keeps me from having more subwoofers to smooth bass response is the small room size. I'd like to have a total of 5.
John, I'm sure your B&Ws have great sound but for me, nothing does treble like horns and the 15" JBL 2226s have such low distortion the mid-range is just pure tone and texture.
Somewhere there's an AES paper cited by Wayne Parham that horns and bass reflex combination 2 ways only need 3 feet to present a unified soundwave. Small rooms will do, keeping in mins they present their own unique set of problem interactions that need to be overcome. The most important, and most overlooked component in this hobby is the room.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
Edits: 06/28/12
I'm with you Bill.
Good quality, large cones simply sound more effortless in general and more dynamic through the upper bass and lower midrange, if loaded correctly. This applies to most types of music and volume levels. I find this contributes to powerfully moving musical experiences.
Perhaps it is more about large mid-bass cones and less about large speakers, per se (though large-coned speakers tend to be large, but not necessarily the vice versa).
Cheers.
“As long as we have any intention to be right… we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest.” Charlotte Joko Beck
I realized early on that a sub/satellite system was the best solution for my small room. A powered sub/satellite system is much easier to dial in than fiddling with a full range floorstander and a ton of bass traps. Been there,done that. Not saying there aren't some full range exemptions ( my friend has had small room success with one of the Tekton Lore models), just have personally gotten more satisfying results with my little REL T-2 sub and an assortment of smaller mains. Two shockingly good examples of speakers that work wonders in a small room are the Ohm/Walsh Micro Tall and the slightly larger Ohm/Walsh 1000.
I have to agree with John 100%.
No problem either. Just listened nearfield and was happy as could be.
I think I love you.
.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
Nice Turntable. I had a sony a long time ago but it died. so I got rid of it....
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