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In Reply to: RE: REVIEW: Merlin Music Inc. VSM-Master Speakers posted by JamesV on June 17, 2012 at 11:41:10
The Audioquest of speakers. I have no use for any audio product that has a ZILLION upgrades to get the "best" from their products. I have a friend with Merlins. Good for him. Do your best the first time. Not impressed. Bobby seems like a really helpful designer and legitimately nice guy. I dislike buying a product thinking it's outdated in an hour, that happens far too often already with computers and cars. Glad you like your speakers, start saving your cash now for the VVSSMMVSMVVSM upgrade being planned.
Follow Ups:
The facts the models dont change can actually be a +ve and many of the others completely change the models and even discontinue models in a few years, which is not really the case here.
There is always an upgrade path with the Merlins. Since no speaker /product is perfect i would rather trust the person who is able to continuously tweak the same design to get it better.
Above is of course IMHO and one of important reasons i finally chose the Merlins over others (And not that there are not other good speakers :) )
I purchased my VSM-SE speaker from Bobby in December of 1999. I had them upgraded a number of years later to MM status and that's where they remain today - besides still in my possession. I am sure the improvements made since I had my upgrade done are great and I am certain the current iteration of the speaker sounds better. Here is the issue - I am happy. I want for nothing with my VSM-MM speaker and Joule Electra amp / preamp. It speaks volumes of a product that has the longevity this has and for those on the outside looking in, *that* is what should jump off the screen. Your point seems to be that a manufacturer should not improve a product for fear of making prior customers upset because they are left out? If anything, it makes me happier that I own the product because I know 1 phone call to Bobby means I get the same enthusiastic support from a manufacturer still improving his product. I am not calling Bobby though, the race car needs parts and money doesn't grow on trees...
I'm so glad Bobby doesn't change in the range of products. I'm extremelly happy he focus on two models and improve them to the maximum.
After 7 years of owning my VSM-MX I've just sent to NY (from Spain) the SBAM to become a MasterBAM plus Master Zobel.
This has to sound superb!!
You are pitting the hard work and pride vs. plain - CON.
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
Consider how long the speaker has been on this journey of improvement. The alternative is completely new models every couple of years. Would you prefer this? At least this way the system can usually be updated for less cost and without the hassle of selling your old 'obsolete' speakers.
And no I have never owned Merlins but I do respect them and their designer. His path is different but certainly a valid one.
Amen to that. I have benefited greatly in just that way plus I've had a lot of fun and enjoyment doing it.
Amen!!!!
Haters gonna hate!
your post implies the o.p. has got a thing against merlin in particular but his objection is sound (excuse pun) in principle.
H.F.N.
No, it is quite right with this poster. Long, long history of hating......Sadly, It's just his way.
Especially since I've no idea what you're referring to
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
I have no control over your inability to following along, sorry.
It's unfair to expect a talented designer not to explore ways of improving their product.Does the creative process stop for the sake of not making too many versions. Should improvement in parts and materials be ignored? I think not and in the case of Merlin, Bobby has made many of the upgrades available on older models throughout the years. I think the VSM Masters are masterpieces. But then I've actually experienced them. It's interesting to note how many people bash a product without having heard them. Makes you wonder.
> > It's unfair to expect a talented designer not to explore
> > ways of improving their product.Does the creative process
> > stop for the sake of not making too many versions. Should
> > improvement in parts and materials be ignored?
The point made by others in this thread (and often seen previously) concerns the frequency of the changes. There is a broad continuum that ranges from a product that is never changed from its first day off the production line to one that is in the improvement-of-the-month club.
It is in the eye of the beholder as to when a manufacturer crosses the invisible line that too many changes are being made too often. One person might simply view the constant changes (and the upgrades available to existing owners) as a marketing ploy to keep the sales pipeline busy. Up-selling to an existing client ("You want fries with that?") can be easier than trying to get a new customer in the door.
Another client might take your view, that it is OK to change a model the minute a new part becomes available or a design change becomes feasible. The danger here is that some people get hooked on "change" itself, whether or not it actually represents an improvement.
In summary, when a manufacturer acquires a reputation for frequent changes, no one should be surprised that it becomes a polarizing issue. Some will gladly hop on the train and look forward to each change while others will view the situation with a more cynical eye. There is no way to "fix" that problem so that all are happy. Hopefully the manufacturer has enough customers who agree with his philosophy that his company remains successful. There will never be an issue concerning the availability of other makes for those who view the situation with a more jaundiced eye.
Allow me to step in here: Upgrading may indeed go forward, or it might just be a sidemove - but i beg to ask: Who can tell?
As a violinist I play one of those great fiddles you have heard about:
Not one month goes past, when this fantastic tool does not need readjusting, be it simply me, or the violin maker, new strings, you name it!
Seems pretty normal to me, that you move around this 300year old instrument with all your might. You could even see it more controversely: You play a Stradivari, it costs several millions, and it does not sound - what do you do? you bring it to the violin maker, and ask him to change "something".
And here comes the ART of updating: The violin maker is not to change any of the essential qualities of the instrument, in the worst case he'd have a court case looming, but it has to sound better.
And now back to Master Merlin: I am biased, having owned Tsm and Vsm and now a Master TSM: I believe Bobby has managed this small balance of upgrading whilst preserving the quality.
I on my part endorse this path (have done so by buying it, and do so again by writing here) - it stands for itself, but (@GEO) please feel free to go on, about what actually?
to date, there have been 6 model changes but that was over a 19 year period. this means one every 3 years on average. in a world where cars and computers change every year and not necessarily for the better, i feel comfortable with my efforts and the timing of these related upgrades.
obviously some agree and some do not...
bobby at merlin.
I think I wrote a fairly neutral comment, and certainly didn't assign Merlin to the far end of the spectrum noted. Certainly it was not my intention to take sides, but only point out a perspective that seemed to be missing from the discussion for many.
The catch is that two people can look at the same set of facts and reach different conclusions. You and many of your clients like the way you do things. Others seem to think that your changes are more frequent than necessary. (Of course, one also needs to get into what constitutes a "change" - the definition alone can greatly complicate things if people don't use the word in the same fashion.)
mls-, i also felt that your comment was on the neutral side but i wanted to be specific as to their frequency and elapsed time. there are two sides to this issue. since no product that i am aware of was ever introduced in a perfect state and knowing that improvements would be introduced at specific intervals, i offered upgrades to my customers so initial investment was protected. this is just another way of doing things that is kinder to the end user.
b@m
Why don't you join us with membership?
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
mt, i have been a member for many years but i rarely post and forgot my username.
is this better?
b@m
Edits: 06/19/12
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
nt
I have a dedicated 2-channel system, a bedroom second system and two HTs. I don't think anything I use is available as a MKII, III, IV or similar designation.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
I found your commentary on the Merlin VSM-Master speakers both interesting and a bit puzzling.
First of all, I want to say up front that I am an extremely pleased owner of the Merlin Master TSMs which I have had for about a month. Review to follow. Previously I owned a Merlin VSM-MX which I had in a dedicated listening room until we downsized to a smaller home. I guess you could call me a Merlin fanboy but a title acquired through much experience listening and owning a wide range of equipment in different settings.I have also rhetorically wondered what will Merlin offer in the next TSM generation? How can they improve on a speaker system that already does nearly everything so right. I guess only time will tell. However, what I found most puzzling to this critique is the fact that nearly all great audio product evolve over time and not just for marketing purposes. That is simply the nature of this industry as well as others such as the computer and automobiles.
The whole art/science of this industry can be best characterized as a never ending state of evolution. The "absolute sound" will always be our primary goal but will remain just out of reach. It is designers like Bobby P. who have made this quest their life's work that allow us to keep inching closer.In a highly technological arena such as high-end audio, there is no such thing as getting it right the first time.
I think this "getting closer to an absolute sound" thing we're sold is bunk. I think we're at a stage where people can push the latest iteration of what is 'subjectively very good but different' sound and offer it as an incremental step towards sonic bliss.
No comment on the speakers in question, just a general statement about the state of the audiophile nation.
Cheers,
Presto
Jay, it's the intervals of improvement which come into question, not natural evolvement. Merlin isn't the only one, just given yet another gushing "I can't believe they've improved on perfection" review, it became an obvious one.
I won't buy a product based on its upgrade path. That's not to say that I won't buy a product with an upgrade path, or that I won't avail myself of an upgrade if it comes along and makes sense.
For example, I bought the basic VPI Scout because I loved the sound. Four years later I'm still thrilled with it and not the least bit tempted to go down the apparent upgrade rabbit hole. I will upgrade the cartridge at some point, naturally, but not the motor, belt, feet, platter, clamp, arm, anti-skate, etc., etc., etc. The fact that that path was open did not and does not make me enjoy the basic version any less, but I'm not interested.
But that's just me. If people believe that such a path is not a rabbit's hole, but instead an enjoyable path to perfection, then that's great.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Well you should upgrade the Scout motor from the 600 RPM if that is what you have. The 300 RPM motor has way less vibration and that "upgrade" only consists of a kit, capacitor and different wheel. Cost I believe is like $150 which is pretty inexpensive.
I listened to the plinth with the 600 RPM motor with a stethoscope. It is literally humming - 300 RPM is very quiet - results in much less smear. Some upgrades are well worth the cost, but then I'm an upgraded Merlin owner.
Hi mt,
I see your point. I try not to gush too much or ascribe "perfection" to most anything as that kind of description leaves little room for improvement.
I know that I for one can get very enthusiastic about things such as a fine cigar or great steak dinner but I try not to over do it for fear of losing my credibility.
a great steak dinner if I prepared it. ;)
I swore at 'em.
I thought I was crazy until the Verity speakers arrived and suddenly my impossible search for something to tame my speakers ended. Not before I'd gone through numbers of cables, ICs, cdps, transports, amps, preamps....
Note, this was my experience and no one should read into it that it is a typical one.
From the legions of satisfied one reads here, it may well be a singular one.
My lesson: if it sounds way too bright, it's the speakers. Nothing else can make that much of a difference, period.
I agree for the most part.
I did have the Krell KAV 300i, which would make neutral speakers sound harsh, so it's not always the speaker's fault.
On the other hand, I had B&W CDM1SEs, and their tweeter continued to annoy me with a Conrad Johnson Premier 17LS and MF2250 driving them. It wasn't like gnawing on a frozen pipe anymore, but it was still bad. That's when I knew they had to go.
And then there's my Klipsch KLF20s, now 13 years old. Forward, but not bright. Sounded good to me with low end Sherwood Newcastle stuff, and just great with a Rotel pre/pro and the repurposed MF2250 driving them.
Electronics matter, but a good speaker won't go from bad to good. Only from bad to not as bad or good to better with the right electronics, IMO. Of course good to better is what it's all about.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
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