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Down a few post about Modifying B&W 802 from 1990's the comment was made,
"If the speaker is good enough to reveal electronic upgrades, you should keep it" got me thinking.
I've owned moderately expensive and inexpensive loudspeakers and electronics over the years and every system has allowed me to "listen through the system" and enjoy the imagined perfomance of the recording being reproduced. At least at one degree or another. I know audiophiles that are "equipment junkies" swapping gear all the time to get the next reproduction "high". But always our conversations seem to return back to the music, because while we often discuss our systems and equipment, our love is the presentation of artists and their materials into our listening room.
The comment above had me thinking, are some of us here listening to our systems for the purpose of finding the weakest link? Perhaps sticking to recordings that also stress a system to it's limits, as well? Not judging, but it could be a worthy adjunct to our hobby I did not know exist.
I do remember a conversation I had a couple years ago with Keith Yates - who once ran a Bay area high retail store, and he told me of his attempts to foster business by bringing in live artists to the store for performances - and how relatively unsuccessfull is was at increasing his retail business.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
Follow Ups:
we called them transducers and had them at either end of the signal chain.
yes, devices with a function not a purpose.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
do well as plant stands while others can serve as room dividers.
First, I have no argument with Tomservo, other than his propensity to promote his products in his posts. He's a smart guy and gives good advice.It seems to me that the Audio Asylum has some rules regarding manufacturers touting their products in posts. Also, I don't see him in the "forum sponsor" list.
I'll sit quietly and wait for the Bored's reply.
Edits: 05/10/12 05/10/12
Hi
I have removed the post, I suppose until the day comes that the management at work changes it’s mind about not bothering with home hifi, it will remain my hobby and love and we will remain only in commercial sound .
Tom.
First of all I did not see your original post that was removed.
Wow, I hope you don't stop sharing info with us. You seem to be THE most knoweldgeable person in this asylum and I always learn somethig from your posts, even though as a total layman most of it goes over my head.
I've never looked at your posts as marketing your products, only sharing tons of great info.
Keep it coming.
Paul
Here's my perspective from a fresh audiophile.
I've been into hi-fidelity now for I would say about three months. Already I have gone through about four sets of speakers, three amplifiers and perhaps a couple different sources. I caught the bug early on as you can tell.
I find that overall I go back to music that I enjoy, not recordings. I do listen to specific recordings to maximize the potential of my sound system, because great sound elicits an emotional response from me. But in the end so do many other styles of music whether its recorded well or not. At the end of the day, I feel it should be about the particular music and not so much about the way its recorded. Any artist should know better than to take his art and put it through shoddy recording methods, so I think recordings fall second to the actual song itself.
Besides, at the end of the day if it's a particular song you like you have heard the same recording many times just in different formats. Unless of course it's live but then we aren't talking sound reproduction. Basically if you have a great system, it should at the very least play that shoddy recording better than say a not so great system like a cheap radio. You are just comparing it to something that has been recorded much better and well, for me that's just something I don't do in my mind.
I think it comes down to individual preference and what brings out the emotional response in you. I find many different factors of music do - the recording quality and the song itself. If both are great that is fantastic but if one isn't and the other is, I find it still brings an emotional response out of me and that's all I'm looking for at the end of the day.
Also I find playing with different set-ups and checking out different kinds of equipment to be very cool because it's neat technology at the end of the day. I'm mesmerized by the ability of some DIYers who build their own speakers and amplifiers. Truly amazing, something I could not do myself.
post removed
Edits: 05/11/12
Hey Bigguy:I think audiophiles like to exaggerate the difficulty in getting good sound - and make assembling a "high fi rig" sound more like a black art handed down from wizards of centuries past. An art attempted by so many yet mastered by so few...
The first thing to check is if the person you are talking with is on any medication for OCD, which is a precursor to having audiophile nervosa in many cases.
The fact is, there are hundreds of excellent sounding speakers out there to choose from for all tastes. I've heard some very nice sounding systems from music lovers who claim not to be audiophiles. They demo'd some gear, liked it and bought it. They have sold some gear, and some in the closet - they just don't seem so darned.... nervous about their system's performance .
I've pursued phase correction and room correction and variable baffle step compensation and all kinds of other speaker witchcraft, even to the extent of incorporating such rocket surgery concepts into a number of DIY designs. Am I a grand master speaker builder? No. But I know enough to know what kinds of speakers I likely WON'T like. For example, I generally won't like a 5" or 6" based 2-way for ALL music unless I have a subwoofer to accompany it. I have a fair degree of skill integrating subs with stand mounts, and don't believe the myth that floor standers are "out of the box" superior to 2-ways + sub. Yes, the floor standers have the "bass built it", but a sub/sat system gives the user more (and better) tactical options for locating things since the sub and speaker are separate entities. I generally don't like side firing subs on towers either.
As far as "function" of the loudspeaker, well, some think it's supposed to be a holo-deck - a transporter which beams you back to the venue and the original event. This is audiophile legend. A speaker is merely a transducer that takes electrical signals and turns them into sound. It does not "convert back" the sounds on the recording because there are no sounds on the recording. The recording is now grooves or pits on a CD. Then in the amplification chain, the recording is now potential differences and migration of electrons. The sound coming from the speaker, even the *theoretically ideal* speaker, is something entirely new - it has never existed before and it is absolutely not the "same" as the original event. Ever.
So why bother?
The trick is to get a speaker that does things in such a way that it tricks you. It either tricks you with spatial information or how it "plays with space and time" so to speak, or how it makes music seem to be more engaging, lifelike, "musical", or "tuneful".
Bottom line? The purpose of a loudspeaker is to give you pleasure. If it gives you pleasure, it serves it's purpose. A speaker with poor measurements, strange component layout, and terrible impulse response that pleases you is more valid that a speaker with flat response, a nice baffle step compensation compromise, and near-perfect impulse response that leaves you wanting more. Ask yourself why Wilson Watt/Puppies were the bees knees for so long after looking at their measurements.
Maybe Wilson already knew how to build the "near perfect" speaker but decided to build one that just sounds good instead...
Maybe this is a black art after all.
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 05/10/12
has proven that the most irregular response is when the low frequency loudspeakers are placed out in the room. best to have them located on the side of the room. (corners are not good either). Unfortunately, most loudspeakers are best placed our in the room to enhance mid-bass to high frequency responce.
Integration of the two is another issue. Can certainly be done using adjustable crossovers and delays. And some rooms and listeners are perfectly happy with woofers and mains in the same location.
In my opinion - though only a few do it would be to design the loudspeaker for at or in wall placement. Alison, use to do it. and there have been others.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
Presto I do not agree with hardly anything you say. To begin with I dislke sub-woofers and I get adequate natural bass from a slim 8" wide floor standing transmission line speaker utilising two full range 5.5" bass drivers both for music & HT. Overblown bass is an annoyance but unfortunately favoured by many. Boom Boom not for me. However personal preference always applies with the listening room having most influence on the sound.
Edits: 05/13/12 05/13/12 05/13/12 05/13/12
"don't believe the myth that floor standers are "out of the box" superior to 2-ways + sub."
I am not disagreeing with your statement. But 2-ways better go down to at least 50Hz to integrate with a sub. Every sat/sub system I have heard did not integrate properly except a system I listened to where the sub crossed over at 30 Hz for the last octave of bass.
I agree. 30 would be too low in most cases. I've added subs to a fair number of (DIY) standmounts and generally you're dealing with the bottom 1.5 to 2 octaves. The lower they go down the better. I like sealed box speakers, so even 7" and 8" designs can benefit from a properly integrated sub. I also like sealed box subs. I do find that some 6" midwoofs and most 5" midwoofs don't reach low enough for easy integration with a sub. But all of this can have more to do with bass modes in the room in question. If your getting a massive peak or massive lull in and around the crossover point, it can make you believe that it's a sub/satellite compatability issue when in fact it's a room issue. I like a good 7" midbass in a sealed box crossed over to a sealed box sub. I'd take a separate sub over slim towers with sidefiring "woofers" any day of the week. Some of these have unusually high crossover points too, likely to make up for the use of smaller than usual midbass units. Some are crossed into the low hundreds and some pushing 200 Hz. Not my cup of tea. All that said, this does not mean a good floorstander can't do it all, but there is a belief among audiophiles that a sub/sat system can't do it - at the very least - as well. This has not been my experience. Of course, YMMV.
Cheers,
Presto
You know - that's the job of my imagination. All my ears are getting are two somewhat correlated pressurevaiations that usually bare little or no resemblance to the compliation of an engineer or producer of tracks recorded or synthesized at different places and times.
Listened to "Aja" last nice of my small upstairs system (the primary system is getting a well needed redo) and it's amazing how I am transported to a performance - in my mind. That's why I like this hobby.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
I think there are several simultaneously correct answers to your query...
My Hi Fi's main job is to please me while listening to music.
I used to think the job of the Hi Fi was to 'faithfully reproduce the sound of the recording,' now I don't care about that so much. Just play nicely and make me happy.
"Romance."
But then....
Sometimes, my Hi Fi is a toy I like to play with and I like seeing how different gear sounds and how things compare.
"Dating around."
Sometimes, I am interested in the treble, and how is it placed in the sonic spectrum; what are the bass characteristics, midrange clarity...really breaking down what I hear. What is in the finest minutiae of detail in the recording, is that the subway beneath Harry Belafonte? How much grain is in the recording?
"Gynecology."
Sometimes I am a faithful husband to my Hi Fi, sometimes I'm its gynecologist, and sometimes I cheat on it and play the field.
:D
Like an artist - dabbling with different media.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
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